Theological/moral implications of intelligent animals

[buffalo]

Agreed. I was hoping illmatic would respond.

Sorry…

 

[John21652]

The people who believe it is wrong to kill animals will give you the answer you would expect of them and the converse applies. Whether or not animals are intelligent does not change the central issue here: do animals have souls. Although perhaps it does add in a new question: is it wrong to kill intelligence; to what extent can the termination of intelligence be equated with the termination of life (in a human sense).

You could argue that killing humans is the termination of intelligence much like killing animals is the termination of intelligence also. The difference being that humans are supposed to have a life after this one while animals are not (this is the view of the ‘its okay to kill animals’ camp). So, if an animal is self-aware and we simply do not realise, it is perhaps far darker to end the existence of a self-aware being that does not have a hope of existence thereafter: throwing sentience into the void, than to end the life of a being that does have a chance of existence after death.

I feel like it would be beneficial to add that the people who are fine with animal killing are only fine with certain animals killed. For example, they would support slaughterhouse meat but would not support the actions of the well-publicised Japanese kitten killing video. The argument can be made that one is for sustenance and one is not… but having (unfortunately) seen both a clip of the kitten video and inside-slaughterhouse videos I think you would be nuts to claim that the two aren’t equable in some way.

The question of whether animals have souls or not has been done to death on this forum. It is generally held that anmals do not possess immortal souls. However, the OP wrote of “astoundingly intelligent animals”, but has not come back to explain exactly what this “astounding intelligence” actually is. Why would any form of animal intelligence be “astounding”? My answer would be that for people who have little or no experience of animals the fact that animals can display intelligence would be astounding. Just as sailing ships and people with white skin astounded native populations hundreds of years ago. However, to those who have experience of and with animals will understand that no matter the level of intelligence displayed by an animal, that intelligence will never be anything but animal intelligence and cannot be considered on a par with human intelligence.

 

[whitecrayon]

maybe one of the problems involved here is this: whether animals have souls or spirits or enjoy highly developed types of intelligence or participate in death rituals (as do elephants) or make rational choices, etc may not be the central issue when we are concerned with what happens to their souls or spirits after death. the central issue may be whether god resurrects their souls and spirits in any way after death. i have no idea, but if the catholic church teaches that their souls perish after death, i believe there obviously has been a lot of theological thought on the matter and that therefore that teaching is true, so far as catholics ought to be concerned. maybe even those animals who possess high degrees of intelligence and who enjoy spiritual faculties such as deep emotions and love of others are not resurrected by god in the kingdom of heaven. although it may appeal to a certain childlike hope for all creatures who love, whether it be the household pet or a mourning elephant, perhaps (and i really am just guessing here) the catholic understanding is based on the scriptural evidence which explains that only human souls enter the kingdom of heaven, where suffering and death no longer exist. but then, just for the sake of philosophical argument, who knows for sure other than god; maybe some animals go to a heaven of their own?

whitecrayon

 

[4Horsemen]

Ever since I read C.S. Lewis’ Narnia series, I believe there may be a lot more to St. Paul’s “Eye has not seen; nor has ear heard what God has prepared for those who love Him.” Who knows? I think that nothing shall be lost of what God has created and that may include animal souls as well as human. Although the Narnia collection is merely fiction and fun especially for kids to read, there are interesting possibilities incorporated into the stories, such as worlds of many dimensions and various portals in which to enter, creatures of various kinds with which to communicate. Of course these are mythical creatures displaying human intelligence, foresight, empathy, but it’s the idea that encouraged my thoughts–please allow me to digress and imagine if you will-- a hypothetical heaven with layers in which only saved, baptized persons (human beings) have the power to see God face-to-face. But beneath this godly group may possibly be others (also humans) who lived as best morally as they could but did not have the grace of baptism through “water and the Spirit.” Perhaps, in the lowest level exists all God created on earth, including plants and animals.

Yeah, stuff for stories – no basis in the Catechism – but I’d like to think of my Golden Retriever, running and playing for Jesus (as a boy in Nazareth). Some of the saints have seen Him in visions as a little child and a baby. Someday we’ll see all.

 

[whitecrayon]

i just want to add a few thoughts to this thread. one, jesus loved animals, as we learn from the incident during which he turned over the tables of the moneychangers in his father’s temple and set free the oxen and the doves and the sheep. also, jesus spoke of his father’s followers as members of a “flock”, as in a flock of sheep, and he spoke in one of his parables about the joy in heaven that god’s servants will share when any “black sheep” from among us is saved (which parable has had enormous emotional meaning for me, given that i know that i once one such “black sheep”). also, it is patently obvious, beyond these two considerations, that our lord and savior loved all spirits other than evil ones, including simple animals which he undoubtedly knew were his father’s creations and which he undoubtedly learned about from god as a child (whether or not the apocryphal claim in the gospel of thomas, that christ as a child created a dove out of dirt on the shore of a stream, if i remember the story correctly, relates the truth).

you know, it has occurred to me, perhaps erroneously, that all or most nonhuman animals are actually holier than many humans. after all, they do not commit evil acts, although many of them (such as warring lions and hyenas) often attack each other in ways that seem truly emotional and are extremely violent. many animals are utterly and completely peaceful, though, and do not harm anything around them, save maybe a blade of grass which they may eat for sustenance, as might a bunny rabbit. given all that, i would venture to state that god and jesus both love animals for sure, whereas, in the matter of humans, they both love many of us, but clearly cast a few into hell.

the way i can accept honestly catholic teaching about the matter of animal souls is this, which i have already stated somewhere else on this forurm (perhaps earlier in this thread or maybe somewhere else?): heaven is for humans! heaven, we are promised by god through jesus, is a place of eternal life and eternal happiness, where no death and no suffering and no evil exists. the heaven god promises us humans likely would not need to include any animals, logically speaking, and, if it does, then we will find out when we get there. if it does, i wonder what the humans god shows ultimate love for when he takes them into heaven will do with the animals: play with them? care for them? etc. does anyone get the point? there may be many other things to do and many great joys in heaven besides playing with and caring for animals and enjoying their company. it is not that i believe at all that god does not love his nonhuman animal creations, but rather that their souls are apparently not a part of human heaven and the above questions may help us understand a few of the reasons why.

whitecrayon

 

[4Horsemen]

whitecrayon,

But do you believe there are plants in heaven? Not only plants that we see on earth, but new and colorful varieties? There is a video about a girl, daughter of atheists, who began painting God when she was 4 years old. She’s now 12 and still paints with a maturity that is astounding. She said that when she was 4, she had visions of heaven with its beautiful colors. Her parents converted due to their daughter’s religious convictions. See this video:

mamabytes.com/2010/03/little-girl-painting-heaven-as-seen-on-cnn.html

Nothing was said of animals though, but if there are plants, could it not be possible that there are animals? Recall the passage read before Christmas about the ox and the lamb lying together and the lion and the adder playing with a child. Of course it’s figurative language, and I’m not suggesting that animals are “saved” or not saved, just that maybe they are there to give us pleasure (not to have to care for in any way) although they do not enjoy the beatific vision as humans and angels.

As said above, there have been threads on this subject before which I haven’t had a chance to read. There are books out there too. Since there is no theological basis for animals in heaven, we just have to wait to see “what God has prepared for those who love Him.” It’s interesting to conjecture though. Thanks for your coverage of this point of interest.

 

[limabeanerson]

I feel like it would be beneficial to add that the people who are fine with animal killing are only fine with certain animals killed. For example, they would support slaughterhouse meat but would not support the actions of the well-publicised Japanese kitten killing video. The argument can be made that one is for sustenance and one is not… but having (unfortunately) seen both a clip of the kitten video and inside-slaughterhouse videos I think you would be nuts to claim that the two aren’t equable in some way.

I’ve also seen videos of slaughterhouses and either the same or one of many similar videos of kittens (or bunnies) being crushed. I agree that they are at first glance both the death of an animal and neither are (typically) done in the most humane way. That being said though, the intent of killing a cow in the slaughterhouse is
A) Profit (for farmers and meat processors)
B) Feeding people

The intent of the “crush videos” is less “honorable” (if honorable can be applied to the pursuit of profit). These videos exist to fill a small and disturbing niche for people that have a sexual fetish for this type of thing or people that for one reason or another seek out the most shocking videos they can find.

So, to wrap up this already to long post, I’d say there is no sin in the slaughter house where there certainly is in the case of the videos mentioned.

Of course this is just my opinion.

 

[tonyrey]

the way i can accept honestly catholic teaching about the matter of animal souls is this, which i have already stated somewhere else on this forurm (perhaps earlier in this thread or maybe somewhere else?): heaven is for humans! heaven, we are promised by god through jesus, is a place of eternal life and eternal happiness, where no death and no suffering and no evil exists. the heaven god promises us humans likely would not need to include any animals, logically speaking, and, if it does, then we will find out when we get there. if it does, i wonder what the humans god shows ultimate love for when he takes them into heaven will do with the animals: play with them? care for them? etc. does anyone get the point? there may be many other things to do and many great joys in heaven besides playing with and caring for animals and enjoying their company. it is not that i believe at all that god does not love his nonhuman animal creations, but rather that their souls are apparently not a part of human heaven and the above questions may help us understand a few of the reasons why.

Many people would disagree with you that animals are not a part of heaven. If they have been consoled in their loneliness by a faithful companion why should they be separated? It takes all sorts to make a world - and probably a heaven too!