Theology isn't a real Science?

  • Thread starter Thread starter YEARNING4TRUTH
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Y

YEARNING4TRUTH

Guest
Hi, I was just wondering what you guys think of this statement. I was watching TBS earlier and a commercial was shown about this nerdy science guy, probably in his early 30’s, who made that statement in a way that just struck a nerve in me. I honestly don’t know what else to say. Should I even be offended by that statement? Do we even consider theology as a form of science in the first place? Does the statement discredit the truths of theology? You guys tell me.
 
Hah. Math is not a ‘real’ (physical) science either. No one doing math is using the scientific method. Yet, you don’t hear anyone discrediting math because of that. No one is saying that math isn’t factual because it isn’t a physical science. Behind that statement is a clear prejudice against religion as well as a materialist assumption that anything real is physical. As well it reflects a kind of scientism that assumes that only through science can we know anything factual. However, such an assumption can not be tested by the scientific method. And thus it contradicts itself. And, even if it were true that we could only know facts through the scientific method science has yet to disprove theology. Therefore, it is a mute point. And we would be perfectly justified in continuing belief in our theology for reasons other than science, which science may some day validate, and barring some scientific disproof of it.
 
Hi, I was just wondering what you guys think of this statement. I was watching TBS earlier and a commercial was shown about this nerdy science guy, probably in his early 30’s, who made that statement in a way that just struck a nerve in me. I honestly don’t know what else to say. Should I even be offended by that statement? Do we even consider theology as a form of science in the first place? Does the statement discredit the truths of theology? You guys tell me.
Theology does not use the scientific method, so it is not strictly a science. That does not make it worthless of course, but it does mean that is is best placed with the non-sciences.

Elements of science can be used, such as dating old Bible manuscripts, but overall theology is theology, not science.

$0.02

rossum
 
fisherman carl:
science has yet to disprove theology
I don’t think that science, or anything else, could ever disprove an entire field of study. It might be able to disprove specific claims, though.
 
Hi, I was just wondering what you guys think of this statement. I was watching TBS earlier and a commercial was shown about this nerdy science guy, probably in his early 30’s, who made that statement in a way that just struck a nerve in me. I honestly don’t know what else to say. Should I even be offended by that statement? Do we even consider theology as a form of science in the first place? Does the statement discredit the truths of theology? You guys tell me.
This question is answered by Aquinas as article 2 of question 1 in the Summa Theologiae. You would have had this in your very first class had you been my student

*Sacred doctrine is a science. We must bear in mind that there are two kinds of sciences. There are some which proceed from a principle known by the natural light of intelligence, such as arithmetic and geometry and the like. There are some which proceed from principles known by the light of a higher science: thus the science of perspective proceeds from principles established by geometry, and music from principles established by arithmetic. So it is that sacred doctrine is a science because it proceeds from principles established by the light of a higher science, namely, the science of God and the blessed. Hence, just as the musician accepts on authority the principles taught him by the mathematician, so sacred science is established on principles revealed by God. *

It is for very good reason that theology was classically called the Queen of the Sciences. In any event, you can read the rest of his thoughts in the rest of question 1.

And, yes, you should be offended by the young man you describe because the mindset he depicts is one of condescension toward an established body of complex knowledge that requires an interdisciplinary approach both to learn and to teach.

It rather reminds me of certain people who speak dismissively of the Holy See’s diplomatic corps when the diplomats each have a minimum of two doctorates (I don’t know of any other corps with such an extensive requirement of academic accomplishment), they must be polyglot (I won’t mention countries whose diplomats can only speak their native tongue and that only with great poverty of expression), or that the papal court has been exchanging accredited ambassadors since the 4th century…long before most of the countries in the United Nations had existence let alone diplomats.

In other words, the comments in both instances stem from gross ignorance.
 
There are different kind of science. I find the English terminology confusing. In German there is natural and spiritual science.
Natural is like physics and chemistry…
Spiritual is like mathematics and informatics…
The difference is that natural science is based on experiments and falsification, while spiritual is based on mathematical logic or as good as possible logic.
Theology is a mix of both, because it consists of many disciplines that are natural or mathematical/spiritual.

However when I look what the German theologians write it is mostly unfounded opinions or ever nonsense based on nothing.
 
This question is answered by Aquinas as article 2 of question 1 in the Summa Theologiae. You would have had this in your very first class had you been my student

*Sacred doctrine is a science. We must bear in mind that there are two kinds of sciences. There are some which proceed from a principle known by the natural light of intelligence, such as arithmetic and geometry and the like. There are some which proceed from principles known by the light of a higher science: thus the science of perspective proceeds from principles established by geometry, and music from principles established by arithmetic. So it is that sacred doctrine is a science because it proceeds from principles established by the light of a higher science, namely, the science of God and the blessed. Hence, just as the musician accepts on authority the principles taught him by the mathematician, so sacred science is established on principles revealed by God. *

It is for very good reason that theology was classically called the Queen of the Sciences. In any event, you can read the rest of his thoughts in the rest of question 1.

And, yes, you should be offended by the young man you describe because the mindset he depicts is one of condescension toward an established body of complex knowledge that requires an interdisciplinary approach both to learn and to teach.

It rather reminds me of certain people who speak dismissively of the Holy See’s diplomatic corps when the diplomats each have a minimum of two doctorates (I don’t know of any other corps with such an extensive requirement of academic accomplishment), they must be polyglot (I won’t mention countries whose diplomats can only speak their native tongue and that only with great poverty of expression), or that the papal court has been exchanging accredited ambassadors since the 4th century…long before most of the countries in the United Nations had existence let alone diplomats.

In other words, the comments in both instances stem from gross ignorance.
No doubt to me that a theologian has to be a very well prepared mind, and I have a question so that you can extend your interesting comment: What is the method of Theology?
 
This question is answered by Aquinas as article 2 of question 1 in the Summa Theologiae. You would have had this in your very first class had you been my student

*Sacred doctrine is a science. We must bear in mind that there are two kinds of sciences. There are some which proceed from a principle known by the natural light of intelligence, such as arithmetic and geometry and the like. There are some which proceed from principles known by the light of a higher science: thus the science of perspective proceeds from principles established by geometry, and music from principles established by arithmetic. So it is that sacred doctrine is a science because it proceeds from principles established by the light of a higher science, namely, the science of God and the blessed. Hence, just as the musician accepts on authority the principles taught him by the mathematician, so sacred science is established on principles revealed by God. *

It is for very good reason that theology was classically called the Queen of the Sciences. In any event, you can read the rest of his thoughts in the rest of question 1.

And, yes, you should be offended by the young man you describe because the mindset he depicts is one of condescension toward an established body of complex knowledge that requires an interdisciplinary approach both to learn and to teach.

It rather reminds me of certain people who speak dismissively of the Holy See’s diplomatic corps when the diplomats each have a minimum of two doctorates (I don’t know of any other corps with such an extensive requirement of academic accomplishment), they must be polyglot (I won’t mention countries whose diplomats can only speak their native tongue and that only with great poverty of expression), or that the papal court has been exchanging accredited ambassadors since the 4th century…long before most of the countries in the United Nations had existence let alone diplomats.

In other words, the comments in both instances stem from gross ignorance.
👍 Well put. I was just about to track down the Aquinas quote, but you had it at the ready. Thanks, Father.
 
Theology is a liberal art; it requires the use of reasoning and logic to expand previous knowledge to address new situations. It requires great understanding of historical context, classical languages, and comparative analysis.

It is certainly not one of the physical sciences, as very little of it is truly falsifiable, but it would be an ignorant statement to say that the field has no merit as a liberal art or science.
 
I don’t think that science, or anything else, could ever disprove an entire field of study. It might be able to disprove specific claims, though.
I agree with that. But for the sake of argument even if we granted that science was the only way we could determine truth (And I don’t think that it is) then we would still be justified in believing in our theology without any scientific proof that defeats our belief. Since our beliefs are neither confirmed or refuted by science. Then we are talking about the will to believe which science neither affirms or opposes. Thus, from looking at science alone under this view it does not force anyone to believe or not to believe. So one is justified under this scientism view in taking either stance. For anyone to affirm atheism or theism then they have to come up with arguments one way or the other outside of the current scientific knowledge. Which is basically to use philosophy.

Christian Theology can overlap with science in some areas as you say. For instance, Christianity makes certain factual claims about the world. For instance, the claim that Jesus existed, was crucified, died, and rose again is a factual claim that can be verified or disproved. If for instance at the time the gospels were written there were people living who could verify or refute their.testimonials. If Jesus didn’t exist for example we should see people writing about that. But we don’t see that. In fact all the writings from that time period we do have confirm his existence. And we don’t see anyone pointing to his tomb saying see here he is, disproving the Resurection. It’s not there.
 
The issue is that many people today have reduced “science” to only “physical science that uses the scientific method.” That has not been the historic understanding of what science is. It is broader than that.
 
The issue is that many people today have reduced “science” to only “physical science that uses the scientific method.” That has not been the historic understanding of what science is. It is broader than that.
But then it should not be considered an issue, because the question would be “is theology a part of physical science?”, or “does theology use the scientific method?”; and the answers are: “No, it is not” and “No, it doesn’t”. But no one has ever pretended that theology is a physical science, or that it uses the scientific method.

The point of controversy concerns the principles on which those disciplines are based. And as St. Thomas states, the principles of theology proceed from the science of God (the knowledge God has of Himself) and the blessed; while the principles of physical science proceed from our “natural light”. I think that St. Thomas said this with great confidence, because he was a man of faith. A man without that faith would behave arrogantly like the young guy of the TBS commercial, or at least would feel disturbed. But if you share the faith with which St. Thomas lived, I think you would say with him that theology is a wisdom which enriches your life in a very peculiar way. And I would add that it is precisely this enrichment what makes theology the “queen of all sciences”. Should it be just an intellectual sophistic discipline which enables you to respond to atheists’ challenges based on hypothetical premises or to solve intellectual puzzles, I would say it would not be superior to any natural science at all.
 
“…claim of an inevitable and bitter warfare between religion and science has, for more than three centuries, been the primary polemical device used in the atheist attack on faith.

“The truth is, there is no inherent conflict between religion and science. Indeed, the fundamental reality is that Christian theology was essential for the rise of science – a fact little appreciated outside the ranks of academic specialists.

“It is the consensus among contemporary historians, philosophers, and sociologists of science that real science arose only once: in Europe. It is instructive that China, Islam, India, ancient Greece, and Rome all had a highly developed alchemy. But only in Europe did alchemy develop into chemistry. By the same token, many societies developed elaborate systems of astrology, but only in Europe did astrology lead to astronomy. And these transformations took place at a time when folklore has it that a fanatical Christianity was imposing a general ignorance on Europe—the so-called Dark Ages.”

‘Recent historical research has debunked the idea of a “Dark Ages” after the “fall” of Rome. In fact, this was an era of profound and rapid technological progress, by the end of which Europe had surpassed the rest of the world. Moreover, the so-called “Scientific Revolution” of the sixteenth century was a result of developments begun by religious scholars starting in the eleventh century.’[My emphasis].

If “science” is defined merely to coincide with empirical science, there results a false concept of science and an impoverished idea of reality. Technical science, as distinguished from common sense, is “certified knowledge,” and some assume that only the knowledge gained from empirical science is really certified, into which they might throw historical knowledge in a broader sense. But there are other areas and levels of technical science that also give certified knowledge. Not only is there true historical science, but, in the midst of the widespread confusion and misunderstanding in the field known today as “modern philosophy,” there is still an area of true philosophical science, if one can manage to find it, and it resides in Scholastic philosophy. Again, there is still an area of theological science, and it resides today especially in Scholastic theology, and the knowledge presented in these latter two sciences is also objectively true and real.
See: rtforum.org/lt/lt123.html

See: rtforum.org/lt/lt99.html
Here we see that “science is certified knowledge of reality as such. **Empirical science is certified knowledge of observable reality as such. Philosophical science is certified knowledge of natural reality beyond the merely material. Historical science **is certified knowledge of past reality as such. And **theological science **is certified knowledge of revealed reality as such.” [My emphasis].

“First of all, classical learning did not provide an appropriate model for science. Second, the rise of science was already far along by the sixteenth century, having been carefully nurtured by religiously devout scholastics. Granted, the era of scientific discovery that occurred in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries was marvellous, the cultural equivalent of the blossoming of a rose. But, just as roses do not spring up overnight, and must undergo a long period of normal growth before they even bud, so too the blossoming of science was the result of centuries of intellectual progress.”
catholicleague.org/resear…nd_science.htm, *Catholicism and Science *by Rodney Stark (from Catalyst 9/2004)].

Even Friedrich Nietzsche (‘God is dead’) wrote: “Strictly speaking there is no such thing as science ‘without any presuppositions’… a philosophy, a ‘faith’, must always be there first, so that science can acquire a direction, a meaning, a limit, a method, a right to exist… It is still a metaphysical faith that underlines our faith in science.” (Genealogy of Morals III, 23-24).
 
The issue is that many people today have reduced “science” to only “physical science that uses the scientific method.” That has not been the historic understanding of what science is. It is broader than that.
The usages of words change over times. So do classification systems. We’re I to take a physics class it probably would not satisfy a philosophy requirement as that field of study today would no longer be called or classified as “natural philosophy.” Similarly if I took a class on world religions it would not satisfy a science requirement. I don’t think that the speaker was using the usage of the word “science” that is synonymous with “knowledge” when he said that theology is not a science.

Pardon my mistakes. Sent from a mobile device.
 
Hi, I was just wondering what you guys think of this statement. I was watching TBS earlier and a commercial was shown about this nerdy science guy, probably in his early 30’s, who made that statement in a way that just struck a nerve in me. I honestly don’t know what else to say. Should I even be offended by that statement? Do we even consider theology as a form of science in the first place? Does the statement discredit the truths of theology? You guys tell me.
Should theologians, philosophers and artists aspire to be called scientists, or else see themselves as lesser mortals? Is science really a higher calling? Turn the tables - would you be offended if a nerdy theology guy said science isn’t a real theology?
 
The issue is that many people today have reduced “science” to only “physical science that uses the scientific method.” That has not been the historic understanding of what science is. It is broader than that.
Yes, this is a good point. Many people today including the nerdy guy from the OP’s post have a very narrow and historically mistaken view of ‘science.’ Science broadly speaking is a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged; or systematized knowledge in general; or knowledge as of facts or principles; knowledge gained by systematic study. Science as we know it today began with the ancient Greek philosophers culminating in the work such as Plato and Aristotle. For Plato and Aristotle, science is concerned about objective and universal truths. So, broadly speaking we can understand by science a knowledge with accuracy and with certainty. Sacred Science or Sacred Theology holds the first place as this is knowledge with absolute certainty as it comes from God himself and His revelation. Among what can be known by the natural light of reason, philosophy and more specifically first philosophy or metaphysics holds the highest place among all the natural sciences because it deals with the ultimate causes and universal principles of all reality which principles are reduced to one universal principle of all which is none other than God who is the ultimate and universal principle of all reality. The study of God as the ultimate and universal principle of all reality in metaphysics is called natural theology. Aristotle called metaphysics the science of being as being.
 
Yes, this is a good point. Many people today including the nerdy guy from the OP’s post have a very narrow and historically mistaken view of ‘science.’ Science broadly speaking is a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged; or systematized knowledge in general; or knowledge as of facts or principles; knowledge gained by systematic study.
I’m not sure that remembering that makes much of a difference. Even with knowledge of the etymology of the word “science” or the fields of study that had been classified as science in the past it seems that the general usage of the word in current times is usually not intended to refer to the historical usages. If someone says they work in a S.T.E.M. field or attends a colleges School of Science and then mentioned “Theology” as their field it might cause a bit of confusion, no?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top