Theology of the Body confusion

[ChibiViolet]

Does anyone really understand Theology of the Body, in these particular aspects:

“God gave us sexual desire ‘in the beginning,’ according to John Paul, to be the very power to love in the image of God through the sincere gift of self. This is why he calls the sexual urge “a vector of aspiration along which [our] whole existence develops and perfects itself from within” (Love & Responsibility p. 46). According to Christian revelation, there are two ways of fulfilling this fundamental call to love: marriage or celibacy (see Familiaris Consortio n. 11).”

“Of course, due to sin, the sexual urge doesn’t simply well up in us as the desire to make the sincere gift of self. Everyone single, married, or consecrated celibate must contend with the manifold disorders and confusions of lust. But what hope we have when we realize, as John Paul stresses, that the heart is deeper than lust, and Christ “reactivate that deeper heritage and give it real power in man’s life” (TB, Oct 29, 1980).”

It seems to me that no one gets it. I can never get a good answer as to how this applies to real life for an actual unmarried person. I mean, how does one go about embracing their sexual feelings without sinning? If someone says it’s all lust–all sinful or improper than wouldn’t that make this theology completely false–that the hormones are just here to test us if our vocation isn’t marriage and we should strive to become asexual? Is it wrong to let ourselves feel sexual at all (if we can at all help it) and if so than why are we sexual beings at all? I spend so much time wishing I could be asexual or a non-sexual being because I wish to avoid all sins of impurity and yet if sexuality is itself tainted beyond redemption in this life, than such should be outright acknowledged by the Church so the confusion can end.

I mean this isn’t all I think about, but without a real answer, how can the confusion end prior to death?

 

[hazcompat]

Be not afraid.

Peace

 

[Michael19682]

I don’r know how grace gripped me and how I began to fall in love with God. It is very recent in terms of the span of my life. I only remember now that I developed greater Faith in years past in the Gospels and Jesus with this clear antecedent:

At that time I didn’t reject, but ignored the entire religion as meaningless. The word had died in my soul. Only then did it produce its fruit. As you know, fruit takes time to be recognized. That is why I tell you it is recently developed. Only then did I realize the truth of the word. Be thankful for what you have and have been given, because it was a gift of enormous price.

Jn 12:24 Amen, amen, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains just a grain of wheat; but if it dies, it produces much fruit

 

[ChibiViolet]

I don’r know how grace gripped me and how I began to fall in love with God. It is very recent in terms of the span of my life. I only remember now that I developed greater Faith in years past in the Gospels and Jesus with this clear antecedent:

At that time I didn’t reject, but ignored the entire religion as meaningless. The word had died in my soul. Only then did it produce its fruit. As you know, fruit takes time to be recognized. That is why I tell you it is recently developed. Only then did I realize the truth of the word. Be thankful for what you have and have been given, because it was a gift of enormous price.

Jn 12:24 Amen, amen, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains just a grain of wheat; but if it dies, it produces much fruit

Yeah, I fell in love with God too, but I don’t want to be improper in my relationship with Him. I told a priest about the way my feelings for Him were leading me to pray–asked him if it was all right and he said while it isn’t sinful, it is improper. I have no idea what to do with my imperfect human love for Him, except to keep it on a spiritual and emotional level and when it starts to feel at all physical, I do what it takes to make it stop…I don’t wish to commit mortal sins ever again, but chastity is a big struggle for me and I fear for my salvation and here my feelings tell me I can use my sexuality in prayer, but with my struggles with impurity, is that really safe to do and isn’t it improper?

 

[Michael19682]

Yeah, I fell in love with God too, but I don’t want to be improper in my relationship with Him. I told a priest about the way my feelings for Him were leading me to pray–asked him if it was all right and he said while it isn’t sinful, it is improper. I have no idea what to do with my imperfect human love for Him, except to keep it on a spiritual and emotional level and when it starts to feel at all physical, I do what it takes to make it stop…I don’t wish to commit mortal sins ever again, but chastity is a big struggle for me and I fear for my salvation and here my feelings tell me I can use my sexuality in prayer, but with my struggles with impurity, is that really safe to do and isn’t it improper?

If you are single then it is a transition way to marriage or consecrated celibacy, is the general reading I glean from the limited and one sided material you present – however provisional its truth might be. I would imagine that you have decided which path to take, and that that is celibacy? You might want to reexamine this choice with another person or persons, so you can be sure by an observable standard that the decision of what to pray for is promised. Be specific in stating your needs together and find someone who is willing to give you a frank assessment not of your chances of success, for that is God’s promise, but of their belief in what is best for you to pray. The selection of words you quote is an answer without a means of accomplishing. You need to pray with someone, possibly with a community of more than 2.

Mt 18:19 Again, [amen,] I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything for which they are to pray, it shall be granted to them by my heavenly Father.

 

[ChibiViolet]

I forgot to include these things: “The man or woman who chooses to forego genital sexual expression ‘for the sake of the kingdom’ demonstrates that he or she is not bound by an uncontrollable libido but is truly free free to love God and love others in a dramatic and unreserved gift of self. And it should be added that this is a bodily, and in this sense sexual, gift of self.”

“This means through an ongoing conversion to Christ we can experience a ‘real and deep victory’ over lust (TB, Oct 22, 1980). If we open ourselves to the work of redemption, the Holy Spirit actually impregnates our sexual desire ‘with everything that is noble and beautiful,’ with ‘the supreme value which is love’ (TB, Oct 29, 1980). Through this ongoing process of transformation we rediscover God’s original plan for sexual desire and are enabled to put that desire at the service of the marital or the celibate gift of self.”

I just don’t get it. I mean, I do to a point, but don’t know how to use the information at all. I want to use it in my prayer life without being sinful or improper.

 

[pianistclare]

I forgot to include these things: “The man or woman who chooses to forego genital sexual expression ‘for the sake of the kingdom’ demonstrates that he or she is not bound by an uncontrollable libido but is truly free free to love God and love others in a dramatic and unreserved gift of self. And it should be added that this is a bodily, and in this sense sexual, gift of self.”

“This means through an ongoing conversion to Christ we can experience a ‘real and deep victory’ over lust (TB, Oct 22, 1980). If we open ourselves to the work of redemption, the Holy Spirit actually impregnates our sexual desire ‘with everything that is noble and beautiful,’ with ‘the supreme value which is love’ (TB, Oct 29, 1980). Through this ongoing process of transformation we rediscover God’s original plan for sexual desire and are enabled to put that desire at the service of the marital or the celibate gift of self.”

I just don’t get it. I mean, I do to a point, but don’t know how to use the information at all. I want to use it in my prayer life without being sinful or improper.

I guess I don’t “get” what you don’t “get”

They’re talking about masturbation. Don’t do it. Save those “frisky feelings” for marriage and where marital relations give those desires dignity and right purpose. When they are directed toward your beloved.
In suppressing those desires that are not “fruitful” you are sacrificing for the love of the Lord, out of obedience to His will. You’re honoring THE BELOVED by not self-gratifying.
Makes sense to me.

 

[ChibiViolet]

I guess I don’t “get” what you don’t “get”

They’re talking about masturbation. Don’t do it. Save those “frisky feelings” for marriage and where marital relations give those desires dignity and right purpose. When they are directed toward your beloved.
In suppressing those desires that are not “fruitful” you are sacrificing for the love of the Lord, out of obedience to His will. You’re honoring THE BELOVED by not self-gratifying.
Makes sense to me.

Whose talking about masturbation!? I was pasting in quotes from a talk about Theology of the Body, which was written by St. John Paul II!

 

[pianistclare]

Whose talking about masturbation!? I was pasting in quotes from a talk about Theology of the Body, which was written by St. John Paul II!

You do not think there is anything in those documents about masturbation???
Are you kidding? The first line of your last post is about masturbation, and yes, JPII knew it existed. And addressed it. The church does too, by the way. Theology of the Body has to do with properly ordered sexuality. Read this:
catholiceducation.org/en/marriage-and-family/sexuality/masturbation.html
honestly.
I’m out.

 

[ChibiViolet]

You do not think there is anything in those documents about masturbation???
Are you kidding? The first line of your last post is about masturbation, and yes, JPII knew it existed. And addressed it. The church does too, by the way. Theology of the Body has to do with properly ordered sexuality. Read this:
catholiceducation.org/en/marriage-and-family/sexuality/masturbation.html
honestly.
I’m out.

I understand he knew about it, but it’s not as if he would condone it!

What I pasted was from a link on celibacy for crying out loud! This one: catholiceducation.org/en/marriage-and-family/sexuality/celibacy-for-the-kingdom-amp-the-fulfillment-of-human-sexuality.html

 

[Stephen_says]

Does anyone really understand Theology of the Body, in these particular aspects:

“God gave us sexual desire ‘in the beginning,’ according to John Paul, to be the very power to love in the image of God through the sincere gift of self. This is why he calls the sexual urge “a vector of aspiration along which [our] whole existence develops and perfects itself from within” (Love & Responsibility p. 46). According to Christian revelation, there are two ways of fulfilling this fundamental call to love: marriage or celibacy (see Familiaris Consortio n. 11).”

“Of course, due to sin, the sexual urge doesn’t simply well up in us as the desire to make the sincere gift of self. Everyone single, married, or consecrated celibate must contend with the manifold disorders and confusions of lust. But what hope we have when we realize, as John Paul stresses, that the heart is deeper than lust, and Christ “reactivate that deeper heritage and give it real power in man’s life” (TB, Oct 29, 1980).”

It seems to me that no one gets it. I can never get a good answer as to how this applies to real life for an actual unmarried person. I mean, how does one go about embracing their sexual feelings without sinning? If someone says it’s all lust–all sinful or improper than wouldn’t that make this theology completely false–that the hormones are just here to test us if our vocation isn’t marriage and we should strive to become asexual? Is it wrong to let ourselves feel sexual at all (if we can at all help it) and if so than why are we sexual beings at all? I spend so much time wishing I could be asexual or a non-sexual being because I wish to avoid all sins of impurity and yet if sexuality is itself tainted beyond redemption in this life, than such should be outright acknowledged by the Church so the confusion can end.

I mean this isn’t all I think about, but without a real answer, how can the confusion end prior to death?

Hi!

My friends and I are currently watching a video series on Theology of the Body. I may not be an expert, but one thing that struck me was your quote

“If sexuality is itself tainted beyond redemption…”

This is not true. Nothing is beyond redemption. Human sexuality in the modern world does need to be redeemed, though. God gave us bodies for a reason, and he took on a human body and everything that came with it, and that’s important.

What I’ve gotten out of the program is that after the fall, it happened that there is an unnatural amount of TAKE in human sexual urges.

If we were all perfect, we would have love for another person perfectly, and intercourse would be a the expression of that love, rather than an expression of lust.

We hear phrases like “I WANT YOU” and things like that, and that just shows there is little regard for giving yourself in love to a sexual partner. It’s not always, but it is present, and that is the kind of thing that TotB is trying to combat. Lust can happen in marriage too. Why do you think women get headaches when their husbands approach?

As an unmarried person, it is important that you recognize if and when you have disordered sexual urges. Sexual intimacy needs to be used in the proper context of the amount of commitment you have with someone. That is why it is reserved for marriage. 100% commitment in marriage means 100% giving of yourself.

As an unmarried person, you are gifted with the ability to love MANY people much more than if you were married and most of your love would be reserved for one person. That is the gift of celibacy.

That doesn’t mean that you repress your sexual urges, but they do need to be transformed. It is important to recognize your urges, and pray to God to see all people the way he sees them; with love, not lust.

 

[LittleFlower378]

Does anyone really understand Theology of the Body, in these particular aspects:

“God gave us sexual desire ‘in the beginning,’ according to John Paul, to be the very power to love in the image of God through the sincere gift of self. This is why he calls the sexual urge “a vector of aspiration along which [our] whole existence develops and perfects itself from within” (Love & Responsibility p. 46). According to Christian revelation, there are two ways of fulfilling this fundamental call to love: marriage or celibacy (see Familiaris Consortio n. 11).”

“Of course, due to sin, the sexual urge doesn’t simply well up in us as the desire to make the sincere gift of self. Everyone single, married, or consecrated celibate must contend with the manifold disorders and confusions of lust. But what hope we have when we realize, as John Paul stresses, that the heart is deeper than lust, and Christ “reactivate that deeper heritage and give it real power in man’s life” (TB, Oct 29, 1980).”

It seems to me that no one gets it. I can never get a good answer as to how this applies to real life for an actual unmarried person. I mean, how does one go about embracing their sexual feelings without sinning? If someone says it’s all lust–all sinful or improper than wouldn’t that make this theology completely false–that the hormones are just here to test us if our vocation isn’t marriage and we should strive to become asexual? Is it wrong to let ourselves feel sexual at all (if we can at all help it) and if so than why are we sexual beings at all? I spend so much time wishing I could be asexual or a non-sexual being because I wish to avoid all sins of impurity and yet if sexuality is itself tainted beyond redemption in this life, than such should be outright acknowledged by the Church so the confusion can end.

I mean this isn’t all I think about, but without a real answer, how can the confusion end prior to death?

Hi! I am in the process of reading TOTB for the 2nd time. I am picking up so much more now than when I read it years ago.

From what you said “yet if sexuality is itself tainted beyond redemption in this life” I think is where you made your mistake. As Catholics we dont have the Manichean principal that the body is evil. Sexuality is tainted because of original sin but it is also redeemed because of Christ and the redemption of the body. So we as Catholics have to live pure lives which also applies to someone who is not married.

I am not sure what you mean when you say “is it wrong to feel sexual?” If you mean to look at others as objects then yes. If you mean to be a sexual being as a male or female than no. Also, we are always to have self control.

 

[LittleFlower378]

Funny Steve, we both wrote similar responses at the same time

 

[Stephen_says]

Funny Steve, we both wrote similar responses at the same time

Great minds maybe we’re on to something!

 

[ChibiViolet]

Hi!

My friends and I are currently watching a video series on Theology of the Body. I may not be an expert, but one thing that struck me was your quote

“If sexuality is itself tainted beyond redemption…”

This is not true. Nothing is beyond redemption. Human sexuality in the modern world does need to be redeemed, though. God gave us bodies for a reason, and he took on a human body and everything that came with it, and that’s important.

What I’ve gotten out of the program is that after the fall, it happened that there is an unnatural amount of TAKE in human sexual urges.

If we were all perfect, we would have love for another person perfectly, and intercourse would be a the expression of that love, rather than an expression of lust.

We hear phrases like “I WANT YOU” and things like that, and that just shows there is little regard for giving yourself in love to a sexual partner. It’s not always, but it is present, and that is the kind of thing that TotB is trying to combat. Lust can happen in marriage too. Why do you think women get headaches when their husbands approach?

As an unmarried person, it is important that you recognize if and when you have disordered sexual urges. Sexual intimacy needs to be used in the proper context of the amount of commitment you have with someone. That is why it is reserved for marriage. 100% commitment in marriage means 100% giving of yourself.

As an unmarried person, you are gifted with the ability to love MANY people much more than if you were married and most of your love would be reserved for one person. That is the gift of celibacy.

That doesn’t mean that you repress your sexual urges, but they do need to be transformed. It is important to recognize your urges, and pray to God to see all people the way he sees them; with love, not lust.

I do not feel called to marriage. Nor do I or have I ever engaged in sexual intercourse and I don’t really ever want to. I just get sexual urges due to hormones and this leads me to simply want “relief” from them so it doesn’t lead to sins of impurity (of other kinds) and not be distracted from whatever it is I’m trying to do (like pray or go to sleep.) I understand that according to Theology of the Body that our sexual urges are supposed to be transformed, but I don’t know how this is supposed to come about.

I have felt sexual feelings for God in prayer and feel a need to always push them away because it isn’t proper and I assumed it would be mortally sinful on two accounts to try and pray with such feelings as inspiration or anything of the kind. They stem from love, but a very human kind of imperfect love so I assumed before it was only right for me to push them away. Then I learned about this theology, it changed my perspective on this, but then talking to a priest about it changed it back. He said the feelings are meant to be used to help people and that while praying with such feelings is not sinful; it is improper. I have no idea even what he was talking about as far as using the feelings to help people and he couldn’t clarify what he meant.

 

[ChibiViolet]

Hi! I am in the process of reading TOTB for the 2nd time. I am picking up so much more now than when I read it years ago.

From what you said “yet if sexuality is itself tainted beyond redemption in this life” I think is where you made your mistake. As Catholics we dont have the Manichean principal that the body is evil. Sexuality is tainted because of original sin but it is also redeemed because of Christ and the redemption of the body. So we as Catholics have to live pure lives which also applies to someone who is not married.

I am not sure what you mean when you say “is it wrong to feel sexual?” If you mean to look at others as objects then yes. If you mean to be a sexual being as a male or female than no. Also, we are always to have self control.

I merely meant, should we push away hormonal sexual feelings when we feel them if we are not married? I know the body is not evil, but our hormones are tainted by concupiscence and lustful urges (and this not necessarily for anyone really; there are different kinds of sexual sin and different kinds of lust.)

I want to live purely and I try. I know it’s integral to salvation and I really want to live with God forever…I also wish to be as close to Him as I possibly can in this life too, but I’m always in my own way and can’t seem to help it. My feelings for God, when I’m in deeper prayer often end up feeling sexual and am I supposed to get rid of them or is it okay to pray with them? How are they to be transformed if I can’t pray with them?

 

[Stephen_says]

I do not feel called to marriage. Nor do I or have I ever engaged in sexual intercourse and I don’t really ever want to. I just get sexual urges due to hormones and this leads me to simply want “relief” from them so it doesn’t lead to sins of impurity (of other kinds) and not be distracted from whatever it is I’m trying to do (like pray or go to sleep.) I understand that according to Theology of the Body that our sexual urges are supposed to be transformed, but I don’t know how this is supposed to come about.

I have felt sexual feelings for God in prayer and feel a need to always push them away because it isn’t proper and I assumed it would be mortally sinful on two accounts to try and pray with such feelings as inspiration or anything of the kind. They stem from love, but a very human kind of imperfect love so I assumed before it was only right for me to push them away. Then I learned about this theology, it changed my perspective on this, but then talking to a priest about it changed it back. He said the feelings are meant to be used to help people and that while praying with such feelings is not sinful; it is improper. I have no idea even what he was talking about as far as using the feelings to help people and he couldn’t clarify what he meant.

I don’t quite understand your sexual feelings towards God, and the way it sounds, the priest you spoke with may not have understood it either…

Our sexuality is a gift because it allow us to love another person completely and the fruit of that love is life.

If you are younger (teenager/early twenties) indeed your body is flooded with hormones, and even though you point to God as the focus of your ‘urges’, it could simply be nothing at all besides quiet alone time that is causing it to happen. You also said it happens when you’re trying to sleep. These hormones actually do increase in our bodies in the evening, it’s just nature.

I’m not a priest, or a spiritual director, but if you are bothered by your ‘urges’, instead of suppressing them, maybe try praying in a different style, one that does not leave you open to these urges that are causing you so much distress. Outside of praying, maybe you can go for a jog, or make some sandwiches and distribute them to the homeless, and when you do, use your body to talk to them, and to spread the love of God to them, find a creative output for your energy.

TotB isn’t JUST about sex, it’s also about viewing our bodies, and the bodies of other people, as gifts from God. God made us with bodies for a reason. He took on a human body for a reason. Maybe through your struggle you can discover a new way of using your body to work for God.

 

[ChibiViolet]

I don’t quite understand your sexual feelings towards God, and the way it sounds, the priest you spoke with may not have understood it either…

Our sexuality is a gift because it allow us to love another person completely and the fruit of that love is life.

If you are younger (teenager/early twenties) indeed your body is flooded with hormones, and even though you point to God as the focus of your ‘urges’, it could simply be nothing at all besides quiet alone time that is causing it to happen. You also said it happens when you’re trying to sleep. These hormones actually do increase in our bodies in the evening, it’s just nature.

I’m not a priest, or a spiritual director, but if you are bothered by your ‘urges’, instead of suppressing them, maybe try praying in a different style, one that does not leave you open to these urges that are causing you so much distress. Outside of praying, maybe you can go for a jog, or make some sandwiches and distribute them to the homeless, and when you do, use your body to talk to them, and to spread the love of God to them, find a creative output for your energy.

TotB isn’t JUST about sex, it’s also about viewing our bodies, and the bodies of other people, as gifts from God. God made us with bodies for a reason. He took on a human body for a reason. Maybe through your struggle you can discover a new way of using your body to work for God.

It comes to me when praying sometimes–that feeling. I was very disturbed by it at first. It just comes from being in love with Jesus. Its nothing I asked to feel and I just really wanted to know if its necessary to always brush it off, or if I can incorporate the feelings in prayer.

I know we can use our bodies to help others, but I just don’t see how hormones have anything to do with that. The priest I spoke of implied we can use our sexual energy to help others–I guess by converting it to something else, as otherwise, it would just be way too awkward? I just don’t get the purpose of sexual hormones for those who are not married, except maybe as part of a test, as in, just another worldly temptation to overcome. How are they to be redeemed exactly, if not through prayer?

 

[ChibiViolet]

It comes to me when praying sometimes–that feeling. I was very disturbed by it at first. It just comes from being in love with Jesus. Its nothing I asked to feel and I just really wanted to know if its necessary to always brush it off, or if I can incorporate the feelings in prayer.

I know we can use our bodies to help others, but I just don’t see how hormones have anything to do with that. The priest I spoke of implied we can use our sexual energy to help others–I guess by converting it to something else, as otherwise, it would just be way too awkward? I just don’t get the purpose of sexual hormones for those who are not married, except maybe as part of a test, as in, just another worldly temptation to overcome. How are they to be redeemed exactly, if not through prayer?

I’d like to think such feelings could be used to love God fully–as a full person, but I guess during this life, such feelings are only for married people to use and enjoy and for the rest of us just to fight off as they come? Are they really not such an integral part of a person after all? If they were so integral, I guess no one would be asexual, which is something I would LOVE to be, as then remaining in Grace would be so much simpler and I wouldn’t have this conundrum…

 

[ChibiViolet]

I guess I’m always just going to be confused about this and the best thing for me to do is fight all sexual feelings that I can, wait for the others to pass and look forward to menopause…If I don’t know if I can pray to God with the feelings than they will not be transformed into anything…