There's hope for us yet!

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Taken from holywhapping.blogspot.com​

I had the great fortune of visiting St. Agnes for the Holy Sacrifice this last Sunday. Wow. And that wow applies to the 8:30am low (Novus Ordo) Mass. Which do not easily earn “Wows.”

It was obviously an unusual Mass. I would venture to guess 33% of the female population wore lace chapel veils. This would, of course, be the young 33%, and indeed about 1/3 of the population (male and female) was in their 20’s or younger.

I was distracted from the chapel veils by the sudden ring of bells announcing Mass (traditional bells announcing the beginning of Mass always succeed in sounding sudden, even if everyone is quite clearly expecting them!) and an ensuing troupe (did I count 8?) of altar servers. 6-8 altar boys (all guys, by no accident), two spare priests, and a deacon who appeared to distribute Communion are not the normal way of celebrating a 55-minute 8:30am Mass. But then again, this is St. Agnes.

Ostensibly, only 2 or 3 of the altar boys did much for the priest, as the rest simply occupied chairs and kneelers set up in choir formation around the altar. And from Father’s quick look of frustration when these two forgot to adjust his Roman chasuble as he was sitting down, they may well be rotated out to inactive chairs next time around. But wait – did I say “around” the altar? I ought have said “before” the altar, because it was 100% vintage ad orientem. We have a certain smile here at the Shrine, the smile of one who has experienced or seen some ecclesiastical thing he or she has dreamed of seeing for a long time and now is relishing the memory thereof, of something a bit TOO perfect. We wore that smile for days after meeting Cardinal Ratzinger. All today, I had that same smile again, seeing the back of that fiddleback blend perfectly into a mile-high marble reredos, a bit of timeless action by the living alter Christus at the eternal stillness of that finely crafted altar of Christ, some mighty strong Catholic ying-and-yang fitting perfectly together. Happy day…

And I don’t mean to give the impression of a static community, frozen in time. Good grief no. Quite active. The litany of announcements I sat through included various times for novenas, benedictions, Vespers, and ice cream socials that would be held in the coming week, and plans of procession for August 15th. Not to mention the number of vocations this little parish has been pumping out – one every two years or so for the last 25 years, I’d say. Witnessing how much they prayed for vocations at this Mass alone (immediately after the opening prayer, two or three times during the intercessions, etc.), I am not surprised.

Of course, you don’t have this much small-t-tradition going on without a few quirks working their way in. At the end of the general intercessions, we prayed Leo XIII’s prayer to St. Michael the Archangel. Unexpected but… why not? Less unexpected was the universal practice of receiving the Host on the tongue, kneeling at the rail, but even those who use the rail seldom still employ a white cloth over the rail. Never, actually, that I’ve seen outside of an Indult Mass (and this parish has no Tridentine Masses). Most surprising, and somewhat unnerving, was Father’s freedom with that perennial thorn in many a “Traditionalist’s” side, the Words of Consecration: this Chalice was definitely shed “for many.” I might have continued to ponder this, had Father not distracted me with his biretta after the Communion rite.

Not that all the coolness was restricted to the good clergy, and good they were. The only other time I’d seen an entire congregation kneel for the priest’s blessing, that blessing was given in Latin at an indult Tridentine.
 
I was there for the noon Mass last Sunday.

That is in St. Paul, MN, by the way.

Only discordant feature in the architecture is that a few years ago some parishioner, I would guess, donated two statues of St. Peter and St. Paul to the church.

They have been placed to the left and right of the altar. No problem there, except for the fact that they are three times the size they should be in keeping with the wonderful design of this old baroque Bohemian church. :confused:

I find it very distracting.

But the liturgy is inspiring. 👍
 
Ah! I thought you meant St. Agnes in New York! Same kind of (young) congregation. Six-voice male Schola Cantorum. And they DO have a TLM.

Another oasis: Our Lady of Czestochowa in Turners Falls, Massachusetts. It’s Novus Ordo – but you can hardly tell! 😃
 
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mercygate:
Ah! I thought you meant St. Agnes in New York! Same kind of (young) congregation. Six-voice male Schola Cantorum. And they DO have a TLM.

Another oasis: Our Lady of Czestochowa in Turners Falls, Massachusetts. It’s Novus Ordo – but you can hardly tell! 😃
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Ah, yes. St. Agnes in New York is another wonderful parish! I managed to get ahold of their CD and while the performances are not exactly the epitome of what the composers had in mind, I was very impressed by the fact that a humble, all-volunteer parish choir can make music like that! Ah, so much to try with my own choir…
 
I fail to see the motivation for the title of this thread.

Why do the so-called “traditionalists” feel the need to write up movie-review-style descriptions of Masses? With a head count… excuse me… “veil count” and a play-by-play of what the servers did, etc. Good golly, who cares? And glorious flowery language that you could indeed apply to any mass… but used to imply that “only our mass is so correct, so perfect, so holy”. Bunk.
Most surprising, and somewhat unnerving, was Father’s freedom with that perennial thorn in many a “Traditionalist’s” side, the Words of Consecration: this Chalice was definitely shed “for many.”
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Oh great, so it was an illicit mass too. Oh, when oh when will the abuses end?

If that’s “hope for us”, leave me out, OK?
 
tcj:
Oh great, so it was an illicit mass too. Oh, when oh when will the abuses end?
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Was it illicit? I’m not so sure about that. It most certainly will not be illicit when the new translation is promulgated officially, as I believe it has been mandated that “pro multis” be translated accurately as “for many.” As it stands now, saying “for many” is not a radical departure from what the text of the Mass actually is. Notice how the Latin Novus Ordo still retains the use of the words “pro multis” … so even though the ICEL translation may read “for all,” changing the words ever so slightly to “for many” doesn’t seem to be a big issue. Afterall, most liberal theologians (read: most of the USCCB) argue that that “pro multis” means “for many” AND “for all.” So I’m not sure this is an abuse.

And why the attack on “Traditionalists?” Is there really something wrong with those of us who wish to adhere to Tradition? Note that I do not advocate a return to the exclusive celebration of the Tridentine Mass. Granted, I think it is a shame that we have to maintain two different orders of the same Mass, but the answer is to get serious about fine-tuning the Novus Ordo, not revert to the Tridentine Mass. Anyway… I cannot believe that you and the majority of Catholics I run into on any given Sunday are not the least bit concerned with the state of affairs in the United States of America.

Let me tell you something. I’m a convert. I studied the faith for years before I went forward and asked to be received into the Church. My life has been transformed in countless ways by the graces I have received from Christ through His Holy Church. I did not study or live in a “Traditionalist” bubble before I entered the Church. Rather, I knew about the liturgical abuses that have afflicted the Church in America for so long. While at first I was comfortable with many of them, I realized that to be comfortable with them was to in many ways remain a Protestant. If you’re gonna be Catholic, you need to be 100 percent Catholic, ok?

Most cradle Catholics I’ve met don’t know what they have. They see their Protestant brothers and sisters with their largely fake smiles plastered on their faces and wonder “gee, why can’t I have that?” So they take over the liturgy boards and try to Protestantize the Church rather than dig into a liturgical tradition that is 2000 years young! 🙂 Most of them don’t even realize what they have. That’s where converts like me come in. We’ve studied, prayed, and in many cases been forced to give up everything and everyone we held dear to convert to the Catholic Faith. Maybe, just maybe, we have something valuable to contribute.

I will never, ever, ever, under any circumstance leave communion with Rome. We have Christ. We have the Eucharist! We have an unbroken line of Apostolic Succession. Protestants merely have a spiritual presence of Christ. We have the whole deal. Why ANYONE would want to conform the liturgical worship of the Church to the style of the Protestants (or worse) is quite beyond me. So if you really can’t stand people who are so grateful to Christ and to the Church for the rich things we have been given… people who actually make an effort to remain faithful to ALL the teachings and disciplines of the Church… leave. Seriously. Go join the Lutherans or Baptists or Methodists or Unitarians. Whatever floats your boat! But don’t you DARE rag on those of us who are making an effort to remain faithful to Christ and to His Church.
 
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mercygate:
Ah! I thought you meant St. Agnes in New York! Same kind of (young) congregation. Six-voice male Schola Cantorum. And they DO have a TLM.

Another oasis: Our Lady of Czestochowa in Turners Falls, Massachusetts. It’s Novus Ordo – but you can hardly tell! 😃
Click to expand...
Ah, yes. St. Agnes in New York is another wonderful parish! I managed to get ahold of their CD and while the performances are not exactly the epitome of what the composers had in mind, I was very impressed by the fact that a humble, all-volunteer parish choir can make music like that! Ah, so much to try with my own choir…
 
Another oasis: Our Lady of Czestochowa in Turners Falls, Massachusetts. It’s Novus Ordo – but you can hardly tell!
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Oh I’ve had the opportunity to attend mass there and the devotion and deep sense of spiritual oneness is amazing. Plus it’s all Novus Ordo! If only all parishes would look to these as examples of how to maintain respect and reverence while remaining proactive and strong!

Shamus:)
 
To see how well a Novus Ordo can work out, another excellent example is St. Patricks in downtown Columbus Ohio, staffed by the Dominican Friars. First off, it has just undergone a rennovation, a true rennovation that restored the church to its orginal beauty. The paintings and statues were restored, and the altar and altar rail have been repainted. The only changes are a table in front of the old altar and the gates being removed from the altar rail.

The Chior mixes in traditional Catholic hymns in English and at times uses some gregorian chant, and the priests at times use some Latin in the mass, though usually it is in English. On Sunday masses(and all masses) only altar boys are used, and incense is commonly used as well to incense the altar during the offertory. Communion is recieved kneeling at the altar rail, usually on the tounge, and the only ministers of the Eucharist are either Priests or the occasional Deacon.

Also before all Sunday Masses and after all weekday masses there are priests hearing confessions.
 
tcj:
I fail to see the motivation for the title of this thread.

Why do the so-called “traditionalists” feel the need to write up movie-review-style descriptions of Masses? With a head count… excuse me… “veil count” and a play-by-play of what the servers did, etc. Good golly, who cares? And glorious flowery language that you could indeed apply to any mass… but used to imply that “only our mass is so correct, so perfect, so holy”. Bunk.

Oh great, so it was an illicit mass too. Oh, when oh when will the abuses end?

If that’s “hope for us”, leave me out, OK?
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Actually, this was as the blog entry noted, a Novus Ordo mass. Why do you feel such a need to tear others down?
 
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JNB:
Actually, this was as the blog entry noted, a Novus Ordo mass. Why do you feel such a need to tear others down?
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Well, thank you for that utterly absurd characterization.

I know it was a N.O. mass. I can read. I also read that incorrect words of consecration were used. That makes the mass invalid. I know traditionalists are so overly concerned about using the “correct” words. But you will also admit that this mass was also as close to a TLM as you can get, without actually being one. Fiddleback vestments and rails, blah, blah, blah. (By the way- do I reject the TLM? No, I do not. Am I in favor of any liturgical abuses? No way! )

It’s that style of mass, along with actual TLM’s of course, which are the only masses that seem to get “reviewed” in such painful detail. And always written so as to clearly imply that these masses are so “perfect” when in fact they are no better and no worse than any other valid Catholic mass.

So for you and Catholic Nerd, there was no tearing others down, no attack on traditionalists. I know that many traditionalists are only happy when they perceive that someone is attacking them, but I did no such thing. I simply commented about yet another flowery review article. I didn’t invite a lecture on converts vs. native Catholics either - where on earth did that come from? And, the accusation that conventional N.O. masses are “the style of the Protestants (or worse)” is baseless.

I’ll ask again about the thread title - who are “us” and what “hope” does this represent?
 
tcj:
I’ll ask again about the thread title - who are “us” and what “hope” does this represent?
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Us: Catholics who profess loyalty to Christ and to the Bishop of Rome, the Successor of St. Peter, and the Roman Curia.

Hope: It’s nice to know that some parishes are actually following the mandates of the Second Vatican Council. Maybe things are rosy where you’re at, tcj, but out in the West (particularly the East side of the state of Washington, a large portion of which is governed by one of the most liberal bishops in the United States) most people have forgotten about what the Mass really is or how the liturgy is to be celebrated. I can tell you that the parish in Cheney rarely offers valid Masses, and the ones that are valid are ALWAYS illicit. At least the priest there can’t consecrate the wine in a coffee cup anymore, and that’s only because a bold friend of mine took it outside and buried it (the parish has plenty of nice chalices to use). Tjc, it’s very encouraging to me and to a lot of Catholics to see parishes like St. Agnes doing the right thing–things that were MANDATED BY THE SECOND VATICAN COUNCIL!!! To openly disobey the mandates of the Church is to essentially remove yourself from communion with Her.
 
At the risk of my neck, I would also like to point out that while you may be complaining about “flowery language” and the detailed reviews of these Masses for the “traditionalists” (be they N.O. or TLM)… there have been many many posts on these forums that were negative “flowery” reviews of invalid/illicit Masses.

I think we need both kinds of reviews, because it helps us all to recognize the variety of Masses out there today–and perhaps to be reassured that there are parishes that are striving to obey VII and be faithful to Rome. It also has helped me in seeing the trend today of more faithful parishes, and especially with the younger priests, around the country. I had already seen this in my own Archdiocese, but it is reassuring to see it shifting Rome-ward across the USA.

The only reviews I think we’re missing are the reviews of the typical parish N.O. Mass that is done basically correctly with no “traditional” or “progressive” elements. Are you calling for such reviews as these as well, to even everything out (really improperly done, middle-of-the-road, really properly done) – or do you just want everyone to stop ohhing and ahhing about the parishes that are attempting to be in line with Rome?

Also - since the proper Latin is “for many” I do not believe this to be invalidating the Mass. Because it is not technically the official ICEL rendition, yes, it may be illicit. But seriously, if all you can pick on from this parish is this rendering of the Latin “for many”… that’s a pretty dang good parish!! 🙂

+veritas+
 
Love St. Agnes in Minnesota, love it to pieces, have been there several times and hope to return, but I see things in this thread that would lead me to temper the praise. The title for one, and the references that a good Novus Ordo Mass is one that is almost indistinguishable from the Tridentine Mass. An army of altar boys, most of them inactive–how is this good liturgy? Why is it okay for those of us who prefer traditional ways to change the translations we don’t like, when we don’t want liberals to do this? I hope pro multis does go back to “for many,” but it’s not my decision. I’ll have more “hope for us yet” when we are more consistent!
 
The charity level of this discussion appears to be deteriorating. Please self-edit for tone and content before clicking the “Submit” button. If the charity level does not improve, this thread will have to be locked. Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.
 
We all know the ICEL translation is quite poor, and has been quite agenda driven, but that said, it is not up to the priest to change the words of the concecration, no matter how badly mis translated they are, a nice way to get around this is for the priest to simpily use Latin in place of English for that part of the canon of the mass.

As for the large number of altar boys, I think that 4 serve as acolytes, the rest are torch bearers.
 
Anne Carmel said:
The charity level of this discussion appears to be deteriorating. Please self-edit for tone and content before clicking the “Submit” button. If the charity level does not improve, this thread will have to be locked. Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.
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If that was meant for me then I certainly apologize, CatholicNerd (great name BTW!).😃 With all the good at St. Agnes I just think we need to be careful that we are consistent about things like spoken rubrics–when we’re not we are open to criticism, and we will get it. I can picture people I know going to St. Agnes and latching on to this one thing (“for many”) and verbally bashing traditional liturgy as a result.
 
Well, I think the description of St. Agnes’ Mass was heavenly! I could almost feel myself sitting in the pew, and wearing one of those smiles!

And yes, it gives me hope. It gives hope to those of us who must endure, week after week after week, a wide variety of serious liturgical abuses, visual and auditory offronts, and a general sense of haste, lukewarmness, indifference, innovative inventions, omissions, additions, and/or irreverence.

How wonderful to hear that, at least someplace here in our country, the faithful gather to participate in a Mass which is celebrated the way the Church has laid it down for us. Even happier to hear that the parish is comprised of young parishoners!

As the Holy Father said to the young people at World Youth Day, “You are our hope, you are our future.”

God Bless & keep up the great reviews! What a refreshing change from hearing about liturgical dancers, clown Masses, children’s liturgies, lifeteen, etc., etc., etc.

Pax Christi. <><
 
The Mass sounds like it was a very beautiful and uplifting to you. I am glad that you enjoyed it. In Portugal and in many places in the world you will see beautiful Masses like that. And yes it does give hope for many who have watched liturgical abuses for years. I just don’t care much for the chapel veils because it reminds me to much of people saying look at me something like the people always waving their hands around throughout the Mass but just the opposite. But I am glad you enjoyed the Mass because the old style Mass can be just as uplifting to your soul as those who chose to wave their arms around all throughout Mass.
 
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