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raphaela

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Sorry everyone, i had to move the post because i kept getting an error message when i tried to post in the other one. I don’t know why but it’s only in that one and a few others that i get the message.

Anyway, I want to thank you all for your concern. I think my fiance and I are going discuss this again tonight, and I will bring your points up, especially the scandal one, since I’ve never heard of it and i’m sure he hasn’t either. We’re discussing the wedding date tonight, which could be from a week from now to a year from now. we’re not having a huge party, it’s just us, the priest/whoever, and a few witnesses. Nothing huge or extravegant cause neither of us can a) afford it or b) have the personalities to be the center of attention for an entire night. I’ll let you guys know what’s what when we figure it out.
 
Hi Rapheale;

So how is everything going? Is the date set? How are you doing with seeing those “ghosts”? Let us know and we keep on praying for you. 😃
 
Hi!

Surely you want the graces of a Catholic marriage, blessed by a priest? So don’t get married next week…! You’ve got to give your priest notice and I think have instructions for about 6 months - at least in Poland you do (where I am). There’s all sorts of preparation… you’ve got to talk about your openess to children, Natural Family Planning, possibly your attitude toward money and how you’ll deal with finances. Depending on the program, you might have to take some kind of ‘quiz’ about your personal beliefs, family background, attitude toward money, how to bring up children, etc. Then you compare notes with your fiance and try to sort out a lot of things that a lot of couples never even think about (‘If we love each other, it will all work out’ - not!)

Don’t get married without the help of the Church! So many people set a date, hire a caterer, rent a hall…and then show up at the priest’s door saying, ‘We want a Catholic wedding next week,’ and when the priest explains that marriage is a sacrament requiring preparation for both people - they get angry and go off and get a judge or some non-denominational preacher and don’t get blessing from a priest or sacramental grace pouring into their marriage.

It takes three to make a marriage: You, your fiance, and God. Leave out even one of those three - and it’s going to be hard to have a good marriage.

Congratulations! I wish you all the best!

Nel
 
Nel, I have to go through RCIA first, which will take a while. I think what we might do is once i become catholic, I will try to get my marriage blessed. I think that is all we can do at this point.

We set a tentetive date of august 13, next year. We’re not sure yet becuase now my fiance wants a bigger wedding, oh the planning!!

i love the idea of the councelling sessions in the church, maybe i can start RCIA in september and it will be easier to get a marriage in the church, though my fiance is protestant and i doubt his family, especially his dad, will like the idea of him getting married in a catholic church but we’ll see.

We also talked about children and he is open to them, somewhat…he knows I want children and somedays he’ll discuss what names he likes and how he wants to tech his kids to play guitar, and then other days he doesn’t want kids…I think it is the age and that he wants to look kinda macho, especially when all his life he’s said he doesn’t want kids, and now he’s changed his mind and he doesn’t want to deal with the questions. He okay with raising whatever children we have catholic, because he would rather have them recieve some religious education then none at all.

About living together, we talked to his parents about this as well, and I brought up your points. After a lot of praying and thinking as well as consulting, we’ve decided that we will continue living together. The sin of scandal can be used in anythin you do. People judge others, most of the time badly, no matter what you do, there is always gonna be someone who talks about you. I learned this growing up in a small town. When i was 10 or 11 and i went for a bike ride, neighboors thought i was going out and smoking pot. Because they thought this, doesn’t mean that i shoudl never ride my bike again. Or i watched this show last night where this kid was in the bathroom a long time (#2) and people thought he was masturbating. That doesn’t mean that the kid should never go to the bathroom again or go with the door open. I don’t see how this sin of scandal can really be a sin…is there any bible quotes on this? if there is, i would like to read them because i couldn’t find them…thanks.
 
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raphaela:
Nel, I have to go through RCIA first, which will take a while. I think what we might do is once i become catholic, I will try to get my marriage blessed. I think that is all we can do at this point.

We set a tentetive date of august 13, next year. We’re not sure yet becuase now my fiance wants a bigger wedding, oh the planning!!

i love the idea of the councelling sessions in the church, maybe i can start RCIA in september and it will be easier to get a marriage in the church, though my fiance is protestant and i doubt his family, especially his dad, will like the idea of him getting married in a catholic church but we’ll see.

We also talked about children and he is open to them, somewhat…he knows I want children and somedays he’ll discuss what names he likes and how he wants to tech his kids to play guitar, and then other days he doesn’t want kids…I think it is the age and that he wants to look kinda macho, especially when all his life he’s said he doesn’t want kids, and now he’s changed his mind and he doesn’t want to deal with the questions. He okay with raising whatever children we have catholic, because he would rather have them recieve some religious education then none at all.

About living together, we talked to his parents about this as well, and I brought up your points. After a lot of praying and thinking as well as consulting, we’ve decided that we will continue living together. The sin of scandal can be used in anythin you do. People judge others, most of the time badly, no matter what you do, there is always gonna be someone who talks about you. I learned this growing up in a small town. When i was 10 or 11 and i went for a bike ride, neighboors thought i was going out and smoking pot. Because they thought this, doesn’t mean that i shoudl never ride my bike again. Or i watched this show last night where this kid was in the bathroom a long time (#2) and people thought he was masturbating. That doesn’t mean that the kid should never go to the bathroom again or go with the door open. I don’t see how this sin of scandal can really be a sin…is there any bible quotes on this? if there is, i would like to read them because i couldn’t find them…thanks.
Living together(concubinage) is not only a scandal, but if the couple unite in sexual union OUTSIDE of the Sacrament of Marriage, it is called fornication, and is a mortal sin.
 
Raphaela;

I think your foundation for a stable marriage is very shaky. You both should not get married unless you both firmly resolve to be open to life or procreation when you get married. It can’t be one day “I’ll have kids” and the next day “I won’t have kids”. This is one issue that is crucial and can make the marriage invalid. Also, how do you know your boyfriend won’t “change” his mind once again after you’r married? A good priest wouldn’t marry you until you both lived apart for awhile. I don’t want to discourage you from marrying in the church but that is how it is. Could you possibly consult with someone not from either family and not emotionally involved? There are studies showing that couples that live together then marry, usually diovorce. When you live together you take the perks of marriage without the responsibility. You both know that if one of you can’t take it or agree you are free to leave. It’s commendable that you are both living chastely but how do you know you can continue this way for another year?
I don’t mean for this to sound harsh but Our Lord told us to take up OUR cross and follow Him. Living a good christian life is demanding, hard with much sacrifice. If we keep our eyes on Him we will be able to do the hard stuff He asks of us.
 
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raphaela:
After a lot of praying and thinking as well as consulting, we’ve decided that we will continue living together. The sin of scandal can be used in anythin you do.
I agree with those who have observed that someone preparing to enter the Catholic faith does not have secure spiritual moorings when one of the first actions she takes is to DISREGARD the teaching against cohabitation!

Have you considered this?

You are certainly right; no one on this board will make your decisions for you, but why would you volunteer the information in the first place if you did not want the opinions of others?

For that matter, if you DO cohabit, knowing now that the Church teaches this is sinful, you have full knowledge, deliberate consent, and grave matter present.

“Scandal” cannot be used in any case as an example of sin.

It can only be properly referenced in cases where sin really exists, and the Church which Christ gave us teaches that cohabitation is wrong.

Do what you will, but I pray for you to obey the Lord.

God bless.
 
Dear Raphaela,

The definition of scandal has little to do with what is actually happening in reality, but rather the perception of what is happening. And the reason for avoiding scandal is not so much for the sake of the people involved in the scandalous behavior, but for the sake of others among the faithful who might suffer a loss of faith or erroneously believe that the scandalous behavior is condoned or excused by the Church.

In the case of cohabitation, it can easily be assumed that the couple are engaging in sexual relations – and not because people are nosy or tend to think the worst – it’s just normal for couples who live together to have sex. Therefore, even if the couple is not having sex, it is still scandalous behavior to live together because others who observe it can’t be expected to know that the couple are chaste.

Another example – in the case of divorce and remarriage, couples seeking annulment are advised to live apart if at all possible. If it is common knowledge that the couple are remarried, then it is scandalous for them to live together (even chastely) and receive communion – again because the assumption is that married couples have sexual relations. If, however, it is not common knowledge that one member of the couple is seeking annulment, and the couple are living chastely, then there is no scandal with them receiving communion because their situation is private.

Many priests will evaluate scandal very liberally and might not deny communion to married couple #1, and I’m not saying I disagree with that. I’m just trying to clarify what scandal is.

Technically, you can continue to live together, then get married as protestants, then become Catholic, and then have your marriage blessed by the Catholic Church. If you are married when you make your first confession, you can confess your cohabitation and your priest won’t have any problem with your situation. The problem is that being Catholic is not about technicalities. If you are unwilling to follow the Church’s teachings regarding living together, how are you ever going to be able to follow them regarding contraception? It might be harsh, but at this point, it sounds as though you need to make a decision about which is more important – living with your fiance or becoming Catholic. I don’t think in good conscience you can do both.

Please pray for the Holy Spirit to inform and guide you,
Tricia Frances
 
i think i have lost interest in becoming catholic…It has a little to do with this thread, but that certainly isn’t all of it. i’ve done a lot of thinking over the last few years, into spirituality and what not. I always thought that you need a religion, or in my case, a denomination to define who you are. But that isn’t the case. right now, I have no need for a church. I tried, it doesn’t suit me. Maybe it’s my liberal way of thinking, maybe it’s my reasoning that to be with God, one must experience what god has given you, which, IMO, doesn’t reflect the church. Or maybe it’s that protestantism is what is in my family (not immediate) and my decisions have reflected the principles passed down to me.

One thing i don’t understand is that the church makes the rules, the pope is infalliable, but what if one of the popes made a rule that doesn’t reflect what God wants and therefore, you would be following this rule blindly, without any analysis of your own identity. Every person is made differently. I can’t find a single reason, other then my love for historical tradition, to join the catholic church because i believe in too many things that are not catholic. I do things that are not catholic, I was brought up to believe things that are not catholic. I’ve tried to live a chaste, catholic life for the last year now, it doesn’t work, it doesn’t mesh with my being. i don’t think this makes me a product of satan by any means, it just means that God made me the way i am, and this is the path, that’s it. Even my chosen career path doesn’t suit the catholic paradigm. i don’t see how i can perform a job that, in thoery, I’m not supposed to believe the basis of. Nothing is clear to me right now.

To be honest, i’ve lost interest in a lot of things recently. Basically because the things i could do before, i can’t do now. i have no inspiration, no reason, or theories. I have nothign to keep me going in this life, save for a few people that I love…and my cat. Those things dont’ last forever. i read about death, i’ve accepted death, but I can’t except my own. i know that i am going to die soon, maybe tomorrow, only god knows this. It saddens me that i may leave these people behind, the people that need me. why shoudl they suffer…of course, now i’m being vain. but this feeling is malignant. It’s crossed over to every aspect of my life. I can’t do anything anymore without this sense that i can do nothign else but wait to die. that is all this is. no way am i suicidal if this is what you ar getting from this, it’s just that, all i have to really look forward to is death. i have no aspirations (accept get married, have kids) but even those seem like some far off dream that i will never achieve. My goals are gone, gone are the days that I could think of anything, and have th gall to say that i can makes those things happen. I can’t, I was lying to myself. i wanted to be a writer, to be a musician, to be passionate about things. Its not happening and times a wastin.

to be perfectly honest, I was much better off when i was sad and depressed because at least i know I felt something. now I’m happy, and usually, my happiness turns to nothingness. I know i’m happy with my fiance, but I’m not happy with my life. I dont’ want to be a biotechnologist, i don’t want to be stuck living in some city where monotany is the only thing i see. i want somethign exciting to happen, but already, at 20, i feel strapped down, tied to this life that makes me feel nothing. God gave me feelings, why cant i use them? Maybe I’m jsut hollow from all the things i’ve experienced in my life that a child should never go through. They say whatever doesn’t kill you only makes you stronger…they forgot to mention it also makes you feel hollow and stoic. It’s almost as though i can’t feel anything. i picture my wedding day, or the birth of my children, i dont’ see myself crying tears of joy, i see myself doing nothing.
 
That’s what so intially tough about this religion…you have to give yourself totally to God, even though it’s not ‘fun’. I felt the same way you do, I’m 26, and had no direction, no meaning, same routine, etc…finally reverted back and am 10000000 times better! I can feel God’s presence, and I just let Him direct me. I co-habitated to, fornicated, and did all kind of non-Catholic things…but those things will lead you nowhere, as you have seen. Only after I knew I needed to live in a way pleasing to the Lord was I able to get back on track. The little fun things you can do while being a Protestant run out of steam. True believers belong home in the Catholic Church, as it is the Church founded by Jesus! What other Church can say that?
 
Raphaela,

Please do not let people steer you away from the Catholic Church. Remember it is the only place with the Eucharist. Remember that it’s not just about the people, it’s about God, about truth. It sounds like you had plans to enter RCIA, which means you probably have talked to a priest, so maybe you can talk to the priest about your current situation with the wedding and everything. I have a feeling he will show compassion for your situation.

I’m praying for you.
 
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raphaela:
i think i have lost interest in becoming catholic…It has a little to do with this thread, but that certainly isn’t all of it. i’ve done a lot of thinking over the last few years, into spirituality and what not. I always thought that you need a religion, or in my case, a denomination to define who you are. But that isn’t the case. right now, I have no need for a church. I tried, it doesn’t suit me.
Please do not give up in your search for God, Raphaela. It is the most important thing you can have in life–a relationship with God. C.S. Lewis said that even believers are faced with periods when the material world around them seems like the only real thing and God could not possibly exist.

These times pass. Based on the rest of your post, I say you really DO have need of a church, specifically THE Church.
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raphaela:
One thing i don’t understand is that the church makes the rules, the pope is infalliable, but what if one of the popes made a rule that doesn’t reflect what God wants and therefore, you would be following this rule blindly, without any analysis of your own identity. Every person is made differently. I can’t find a single reason, other then my love for historical tradition, to join the catholic church because i believe in too many things that are not catholic. I do things that are not catholic, I was brought up to believe things that are not catholic.
Not to get into this too much, but to answer your question about papal infallibility, which incidentally is a big obstacle for many converts; the Pope’s infallibility applies only to matters of faith or morals. We believe as Catholics in Christ’s promise: “Upon this Rock I build My Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

If the Pope taught a false doctrine, the gates of hell would begin to prevail against the Church and mislead Catholics. Christ has promised this will not happen.

And I am sure you can find a great many reasons to join the Church. Of the issues; what do you think of abortion, homosexual activity, artificial contraception, euthanasia and embryonic stem cell research? The Church teaches about all these things. If you have read the boards and seen others post about these things, I am sure you have a knowledge base that can lead you to see that the Church teaches the truth about these things.

Why else would you come to the Church? The saints, the mystical tradition, the fellowship of believers, the Mass, the Rosary, contemplative prayer, Christ’s promise, and most of all, the Eucharist.
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raphaela:
all i have to really look forward to is death. i have no aspirations (accept get married, have kids) but even those seem like some far off dream that i will never achieve. My goals are gone, gone are the days that I could think of anything, and have th gall to say that i can makes those things happen.
But you have much to look forward to. After death there is life, as the Lord has promised us. The Lord has said that whoever dies and believes in Him will live and whoever lives and believes in Him will never die. Either this promise is true or false. There is no reason to believe it is false. Read of the saints like St. Francis and St. Maximilian Kolbe who spoke with God and were guaranteed salvation.

These things are real. Our greatest aspiration is to be with God.

Please think about these things. There are many who have read your message who are praying for you.
 
The one poster was right. Religion is really not just something you identify yourself with. Even if you decide to stay a Protestant the call is always to deeper relationship with God. You feel that the Catholic church has rules that make it hard to live out. But it’s not easy to do it as a Protestant either. I don’t know of any Christian denomination that would advocate cohabitation irregardless of the sexual issues involved. It sounds like you need some time alone (even away from your fiance) to sort things out. And most of all pray. We are praying for you too.
 
How do you feel God’s presence? Other than the experience I had, of which I’m skeptical, i don’t understnad.

also, this feeling has been occuring for a very long time. Longer than me and my fiance have been together. I don’t think it has to do with cohabitiation. It’s all me. He helps me through everything, he’s helping me through this by being there for me. So time apart wouldn’t help. but thanks for the suggestion.

I’m working through things an inch at a time, hopefully one day, I’ll be where I want to be.
 
Dearest one,

I have been praying about how to answer your last post. The words are not as forthcoming as I would like. But I will do my best.

The restlessness or feeling that something is missing or there should be more to life than… this, is the longing of the soul for God. Sometimes we can feel depressed even though by the world’s standards life should be good.

But we are made for God. And our only happiness is to be close to Him.

In most Protestant theologies, the soul and it’s sins are merely covered over by the precious blood of Christ during His act of salvation on the cross. But you are still a sinner and can never change.

But in Catholicism, we know that the soul can actually be transformed into perfection. How is this possible? Obviously it can only be achieved by God. But we have our part where we must cooperate with His grace.

The great Carmelite spiritual writers tell us that this is only possible with prayer. By this they mean that we must make it a regular habit to pray every day. Secular Carmelites are required to pray for 30 minutes a day. So I would recommend this to you.
If this is too long try 15. But pray regularly and constantly.

Where to begin? St. Theresa of Avila suggests meditating on the Lord’s Prayer. She could meditate on it for months. Her writings are difficult however, so you may not be ready to read them yet.

Another Carmelite writer who is very easy to understand is Brother Lawrence. He wrote a little book, Practicing the Presence of God. This would be an excellent place to start. He talks about just plain talking to God, like a friend who is right there with you. He would do this while washing dishes, for example.

You seem to be trying to put the cart before the horse. By trying to make life changing decisions before you actually are ready. Begin with prayer. And everything else will fall into place.

God Bless you.

Mary
 
Thank you very much…though I don’t understand what life changes I am trying to do other than getting married, that i was ready for at 15, but we waited of course.

i have been praying a lot more lately, most of the time, they seem pointless, but i still do it. I pray the rosary whenever I can. I’m going to my first mass on sunday. I’m trying, though it might take a while.

I liked your horse analogy…especially when i usually choose to pull the cart myself rather than let the horse do it!!!

Thank you so much for your response!!
 
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