Thought Experiment for Non-Catholic Christians

[BrianGular]

I never said anything about God being resisted. You have extracted that from my post when it was never there.

And yes, it is possible for people to reject God. God loves us and he wants us to be with him, but it is our choice because we have free will. If we want to reject him, he lets us do so. He didn’t fail. Those who turn their back on him fail.

I was very precise. The example you gave was a person “devout and alive in their faith”. This implies or suggests that they have accepted Jesus Christ’s offer of salvation. Then you said that they “set down their Bible, and never look back”. This implies or suggests that they have now rejected the salvation of Jesus Christ. I stand by what I wrote.

The rest of your response supports my analysis of your example. You claim that we have free will. Where the free-will argument falls apart for me is in the idea that we have the power to thwart God’s will. To borrow Edward H’s analogy, Jesus Christ opens the door and beckons. That means he wants us to step through the door. It is His will that we do so. But what if we turn out backs and walk away? One side of the coin says it’s on us. We failed. The other side of the coin says that God’s offer was refused, His will was thwarted. It is a cop-out to consider the former and not the latter.

God’s will cannot be thwarted. He cannot fail. There are zero examples in scripture of God not getting His way. None. If He opens the door and beckons, we are on our knees crawling through the door. We cannot resist. We cannot “try it out” for a season and change our minds later. God is not so weak that the determination of who gets into heaven hinges on man’s decisions and man’s actions. It’s all God.

 

[Farsight001]

I was very precise. The example you gave was a person “devout and alive in their faith”. This implies or suggests that they have accepted Jesus Christ’s offer of salvation. Then you said that they “set down their Bible, and never look back”. This implies or suggests that they have now rejected the salvation of Jesus Christ. I stand by what I wrote.

You were most certainly not precise because you suggested that this scenario of mine meant that we can thwart God’s will, even though it means no such thing.

The rest of your response supports my analysis of your example. You claim that we have free will. Where the free-will argument falls apart for me is in the idea that we have the power to thwart God’s will. To borrow Edward H’s analogy, Jesus Christ opens the door and beckons. That means he wants us to step through the door. It is His will that we do so. But what if we turn out backs and walk away? One side of the coin says it’s on us. We failed. The other side of the coin says that God’s offer was refused, His will was thwarted. It is a cop-out to consider the former and not the latter.

It’s not a copout. It’s basic logic. There is no logical reason that faith cannot be authentic and then rejected, but you are claiming exactly this.

God’s will cannot be thwarted. He cannot fail. There are zero examples in scripture of God not getting His way. None. If He opens the door and beckons, we are on our knees crawling through the door. We cannot resist. We cannot “try it out” for a season and change our minds later. God is not so weak that the determination of who gets into heaven hinges on man’s decisions and man’s actions. It’s all God.

Again, I never said his will could be thwarted. But we can reject it. We have the free will to do so.

You seem to have a poor grasp on what “will” is. There are two kinds of will when it comes to God. There is “will” in the sense of creation - God willed it, and it happened. In this sense, will is essentially an action. There is also “will” as in a desire - a want for something to happen. God desires us to be saved. It is not forced upon us ever.

 

[stevekehl]

Bump

I still haven’t gotten the type of answer I’m looking for. The closest thing is Farsight’s response which is a response he got, and he even didn’t really get a response.

Anybody have a response from the point of view mentioned in the OP?

In case A I would say saved and in heaven. In case B I would say saved and in heaven. The question is not did this person reject their faith, it is had they lived longer would they have repented? I believe so. For people that are uncomfortable with that I would say be concerned with your own salvation.

 

[bzkoss236]

The question is not did this person reject their faith, it is had they lived longer would they have repented? I believe so.

Interesting extension of my experiment

 

[BrianGular]

You were most certainly not precise because you suggested that this scenario of mine meant that we can thwart God’s will, even though it means no such thing.

It’s not a copout. It’s basic logic. There is no logical reason that faith cannot be authentic and then rejected, but you are claiming exactly this.

Again, I never said his will could be thwarted. But we can reject it. We have the free will to do so.

You seem to have a poor grasp on what “will” is. There are two kinds of will when it comes to God. There is “will” in the sense of creation - God willed it, and it happened. In this sense, will is essentially an action. There is also “will” as in a desire - a want for something to happen. God desires us to be saved. It is not forced upon us ever.

Your claims and position seem illogical to me, but I can tell from your condescending language that your position will not change no matter what I write. This is not the first time I have encountered someone on CAF who uses words and then claims they mean something else. Sigh. I will not continue this debate with you. Peace.

 

[Edward_H]

You have described a mechanism by which we can thwart God’s will. If God wants Edward H in heaven, He is at Edward’s mercy. If Edward doesn’t walk through the door, God’s will is not satisfied. Do you really believe that God’s will can be thwarted? Do you really believe that if God calls someone they can resist Him? I think God is irresistible and that His will is always accomplished.

Then, according to your point, no one can be lost to God. No one can thrwart God’s will. In fact, sin is not possible at all since it’s God’s will that we not sin. That we don’t distance ourselves through our actions.

Catholic theology understands that God has a positive will and a permissive will, making our free will possible.

Satan and his minions, fallen souls really, thwart God’s will daily, hourly.

 

[Farsight001]

Your claims and position seem illogical to me, but I can tell from your condescending language that your position will not change no matter what I write. This is not the first time I have encountered someone on CAF who uses words and then claims they mean something else. Sigh. I will not continue this debate with you. Peace.

In other words, “I can’t refute your sound logic, but nor am I willing to recognize my own cognitive dissonance that comes from my beliefs, so I’m just not going to talk to you anymore”. Wasn’t it you talking about copouts earlier?