Thought for discussion

[CelticWarlord]

The late Dr. Marcus Borg once said, “Belief is highly overrated. One can believe all the correct things and still be a nasty neighbor, a bullying boss, and a domineering spouse. Without transformation, belief means very little”.

What are your thoughts?

 

[LittleFlower378]

Belief is faith, but we not only need faith, we also need hope and charity. Without charity, we will not get far in the spiritual life.

 

[Greenfields]

I thought of St Jarome when I read your thread
He had a temper ,yet loved Jesus so much.

 

[John_the_Blind]

James 2:14 - “What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?”

James 2:17 - “So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.”

 

[Dan_Defender]

Of course faith is a start, not the whole journey, but it is important. Jesus said: ‘when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on earth?’

 

[Zach]

What are my thoughts? The first thought is St Paul 1 Corinthians 13: “if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.”

I would not say faith overrated let alone “highly overrated.” God would not give us the grace of faith if it were overrated. Without faith in the afterlife all our works fade away into nothingness as our life is but a flower that exists briefly before wilting into oblivion. The word of God is eternal and by faith and works we can participate in that eternity.

 

[on_the_hill]

Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?” He said to him, “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment. The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.”
.

 

[JonNC]

The late Dr. Marcus Borg once said, “Belief is highly overrated. One can believe all the correct things and still be a nasty neighbor, a bullying boss, and a domineering spouse. Without transformation, belief means very little”.

What are your thoughts?

“There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow.”
-Martin Luther

 

[Mary888]

One can believe all the correct things and still be a nasty neighbor, a bullying boss, and a domineering spouse. Without transformation, belief means very little

I disagree. If one believes all the right things then one would do all the right things and not be a bully. If one says they believe all the right things and does something else then they don’t believe those things, they just say they do.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

I agree.

Faith is a first step. And then we have to cultivate the virtues.

I’ve known some nasty believers and affable non-believers.

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

It’s possible that the two have nothing to do with each other (personal belief and behavior). If someone believes in the “right things” maybe that will get that person to heaven. However, that same person could have psychological problems, addictions, immaturity, whatever, and be a nasty person. Does that negate their belief in the risen Christ?
Probably most people who are striving to follow Christ are “nice” people in the eyes of the secular world. But it ain’t necessarily so, is it? One’s own perceptions could certainly be in play, for instance if you are describing someone as a mean boss, etc.

 

[Dovekin]

I thought of James 2:19 “You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.”

Even the demons believe, the nasty neighbor, the bullying boss. Only the transformed person, the one with love, is saved.

 

[Vico]

The late Dr. Marcus Borg once said, “Belief is highly overrated. One can believe all the correct things and still be a nasty neighbor, a bullying boss, and a domineering spouse. Without transformation, belief means very little”.

What are your thoughts?

Catechism

1815 The gift of faith remains in one who has not sinned against it.80 But “faith apart from works is dead”:81 when it is deprived of hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of his Body.

 

[CelticWarlord]

If one believes all the right things then one would do all the right things

As Dovekin pointed out, “even the demons believe and tremble”. Belief does not necessarily lead to a transformed life, imo.

 

[goout]

The late Dr. Marcus Borg once said, “Belief is highly overrated. One can believe all the correct things and still be a nasty neighbor, a bullying boss, and a domineering spouse. Without transformation, belief means very little”.

What are your thoughts?

I have no problem with the content of his statement.
But, the false implications that many give to his statement are problematic.

The false implications lead to indifferentism towards religious belief.
That indifference is usually expressed as:
“it doesn’t matter what you believe as long as you are a good person” which is nonsense.

 

[Mary888]

As Dovekin pointed out, “even the demons believe and tremble”

That quote is from the New Testament actually, Dovekin stole it (if he gave no reference to the Apostles’s Letters).
The case of demons is different than people. Demons are fallen angels and people are just people. Two completely different type of beings. Sure some people hold dead souls and they dream of being demons. But they are not. The saddest part is…in a way… dead human souls that some may have do not equal demons.
Living souls can celebrate together with the Hoky Angels, but dead souls can never celebrate togther with demons. Demons simply rebuke all human nature.

 

[CelticWarlord]

That quote is from the New Testament actually,

Yes, James 2:19 as Dovekin cited it correctly. I thought it was self-evident myself so didn’t repeat the chapter and verse. Within the context of the two bracketing verses I do think it is suggesting that it is possible to have faith, to believe, and still to fail to live the godly life. So I agree with you that the majority, upon coming to belief, will act accordingly. But there will be some few who, for reasons perhaps of background, upbringing, and environmental influences, will believe in some manner, and yet fail to live uprightly.

But more deeply, what Dr. Borg was referring to in the lecture I heard where he stated that phrase originally, was the Protestant camp meeting, altar call, and just believe mentality. This is actually why Martin Luther didn’t care for the book of James; it was a book listing a lot of “works”, where he was a “by faith alone” guy.