Thoughts on The Tower of Babel and our Pride

[simple_soul]

Hello everyone,

I have been reading a few threads in the Spirituality Forum about how pointless arguing over who is right and who is wrong is, that it compelled me to try and share my thoughts on how I think this arguing hinders us from truly knowing God in our hearts. I pray that you will read what I have to say understanding that I really do not have a formal education in church history and my thoughts come from my limited knowledge of what I do know. I just want to share my thoughts so that maybe we all could understand each other better.

When I first came to CAF I could not get over how much people seemed to talk with such disdain, contempt and closed mindedness that I think I was unbearably crushed. I was also amazed at how much confusion there is out there. When you read the different threads on CAF it gets to the point of hearing the same thing argued over and over again. It is like everyone is talking but no one is understanding much of what the other is saying. When I saw it this way it reminded me of the story of the Tower of Babel. I think, if I remember correctly, that pride was the reason the people wanted to build the tower so that they could get to heaven to be with God. God, knowing what they were trying to do, confused their language and they could no longer understand one another and therefore could not complete the tower.

I do think we still have that Tower of Babel today but now it is in the form of “I understand God’s Truth more than you”. I think “pride” causes us to not be able to understand God’s Truth in each other. If this is correct then no wonder there are so many variations of beliefs out there all claiming to have the “one and only” truth. I was thinking that if we could just learn how to swallow our “pride” and find a way to converse in charity and love we might begin to understand what each other is really trying to say and maybe understand what we believe more deeply and we may even discover we actually share more truths than we realize. We may even begin to understand that the Catholic Church encompasses more than just the Catholic Church of Rome. Maybe it is because of our “pride” that God allows for the confusion in His Church. If we learn the virtue of humility and just let God guide us, He then might let the confusion of language leave us and we might then be able to understand one another again.

I think we really need to strip ourselves down to the core in order to do this and it will take a lot of trust in God and we will probably have to admit we are wrong from time to time but that is OK. If we were right about everything then why would we even need God? I do believe our thirst for wanting to know God has to be left in His hands. We have to understand His ways are mysterious and that we do not know all His ways and that He is all powerful and that through His Holy Spirit He blows where He wills. We have to keep in mind that we would not even be aware of Him if it was not for His Divine revelation. I believe we really do need to “let go and let God”.

I think our Blessed Mother Mary is a perfect example of how we need to condition our hearts, minds and will to do this when she said “Thy will be done unto me according to Thy Word”. We do not have any gospels of our Blessed Mother Mary but we do have her example of pondering many things in her heart. If we are to use her as our guide to mold and condition our hearts the way her heart is then we need to learn to accept God’s word over our own even when we do not understand His word. We need to ponder it, pray about it, and wait for the time God deems it necessary for us to understand it.

I will end with just reiterating that I am trying to make some sense out of all the confusion I see and hear in my head and in the world, so if anyone has any (name removed by moderator)ut please help me to understand this better.

 

[ljubim]

Wow! I can tell you deeply care about this.

First, I had thought that the tower was built as a monument to the people themselves, to show their greatness and and how god-like they were. (my apologies if I’m wrong)

But all the same, you have a real point. I do a lot of the debating myself, and it really is difficult to try and be civil, and yet counter somebody who defames God as a ‘wannabe celebrity’ or says that the pope is evil, or that Catholics are idolators for having statues and rosaries, etc. Some people enjoy the rush of anger and adrenaline they have when arguing, and many do so with the intention to hurt. But on the recieving end of this hatred or insults, it is hard to be like Christ.

But we also must remember that Christ, when He saw the hagglers in the temple, that he drove them out by making a big mess and essentially, a scene. These people were defaming God also, even though many undoubtedly thought they were being just.

I agree that we must strive to be like Mary, but also like Jesus. So it takes a balance. However important it is to be kind to all, you should not be kind to a gang member about to shoot your family member, in the sense that you must take action against evil. And it is important to not let kindness fall into relativism and tolerance, when you respond to evil with an argument that it is good in the end.

In a perfect CAF things would not be as they are, because we would not provoke each other or say hurtful things. But right now, if somebody slanders God, or speaks badly of His church, then I hope you understand why I, and others, feel morally compelled to say something. (for a good examply check out what the agnostics were saying on the ‘family members going to hell’ thread. The OP was in despair and in a fragile situation, and they are slandering God and encouraging the OP to leave the church and to have doubt. Please understand that something must be said in many cases.)

 

[simplynoone]

I was also amazed at how much confusion there is out there.

Why not just put aside all that you have been taught … even at the cost of “going to hell.” Jeremiah 17:5. Let God teach you from His own “mouth” Proverbs 2:1-7. And stick to the Tanakh only for the next couple of months … after all, even Jesus confirmed the Law and the prophets Matthew 5:17-19. (I even, after over 2 decades of reading the Bible threw out the whole of it for about 11 months … and in quite the dramatic way. I threw it against the wall and left it there for that 11 months until one night, I was compelled to pick it up … it fell open to Ezekiel 16 and suddenly, I understood why the Jewish were special and the chosen of God … and yes, through that chapter).

Don’t worry about the judgments and condemnations that man will put on you for doing such. The “fire” (hell) aka judgments of God are right and not something to run from … Psalm 19:7-11; Deut 4:12; Zechariah 9:13.

This was the only way that I personally was able to make sense of all the confusion … to throw out what all “they” taught me and to rather only accept Truth … no matter the consequences. It was God I was seeking … not man’s version. I would be curious to see if another is able to take these steps and where it would lead them.

 

[simple_soul]

Wow! I can tell you deeply care about this.

First, I had thought that the tower was built as a monument to the people themselves, to show their greatness and and how god-like they were. (my apologies if I’m wrong)

But all the same, you have a real point. I do a lot of the debating myself, and it really is difficult to try and be civil, and yet counter somebody who defames God as a ‘wannabe celebrity’ or says that the pope is evil, or that Catholics are idolators for having statues and rosaries, etc. Some people enjoy the rush of anger and adrenaline they have when arguing, and many do so with the intention to hurt. But on the recieving end of this hatred or insults, it is hard to be like Christ.

But we also must remember that Christ, when He saw the hagglers in the temple, that he drove them out by making a big mess and essentially, a scene. These people were defaming God also, even though many undoubtedly thought they were being just.

I agree that we must strive to be like Mary, but also like Jesus. So it takes a balance. However important it is to be kind to all, you should not be kind to a gang member about to shoot your family member, in the sense that you must take action against evil. And it is important to not let kindness fall into relativism and tolerance, when you respond to evil with an argument that it is good in the end.

In a perfect CAF things would not be as they are, because we would not provoke each other or say hurtful things. But right now, if somebody slanders God, or speaks badly of His church, then I hope you understand why I, and others, feel morally compelled to say something. (for a good examply check out what the agnostics were saying on the ‘family members going to hell’ thread. The OP was in despair and in a fragile situation, and they are slandering God and encouraging the OP to leave the church and to have doubt. Please understand that something must be said in many cases.)

Dear ljubim,

You might be correct about the story of the Tower of Babel. I am working from a memory of the story that was told to me when I was young. I will have to get my bible and read the story.

I must apologize for taking my time to respond to your thoughts but I had to pray about them and do a some reflecting and soul searching.

I do not believe that having love, compassion, charity, and humility will allow us to fall into relativism and tolerance. I heard that relativism that does not recognize anything as definitive and whose ultimate goal consists solely of one’s ego and desires is what is wrong with relativism. I believe that when we become so focused on ourselves and start trying to prove to others that they are wrong that we ourselves fall into a state of relativism and give way to our pride. I do not believe we are totally aware of just how deep the roots of pride have managed to get.

I do not know that I could use the example that you gave of how Jesus Christ handled the hagglers in His Temple to justify my reasons for doing things without love, humility compassion and charity, but I do know that I never want to be one of those hagglers. They, from what I remember, were the ones that used His house for their own desires and egos. This is the real fear I have of taking God’s word and using it to have the last word in an argument.
I agree with you about not having kindness for a gang member who is trying to shoot my family but I do believe that you can have love, compassion, charity and even humility in how you “deal” with him even if it means you have to kill him to protect those he is trying to harm.

I am still praying and trying to understand all of this so please bear with me if I have not fully understood something you said earlier and please keep me in your prayers.

 

[simple_soul]

Why not just put aside all that you have been taught … even at the cost of “going to hell.” Jeremiah 17:5. Let God teach you from His own “mouth” Proverbs 2:1-7. And stick to the Tanakh only for the next couple of months … after all, even Jesus confirmed the Law and the prophets Matthew 5:17-19. (I even, after over 2 decades of reading the Bible threw out the whole of it for about 11 months … and in quite the dramatic way. I threw it against the wall and left it there for that 11 months until one night, I was compelled to pick it up … it fell open to Ezekiel 16 and suddenly, I understood why the Jewish were special and the chosen of God … and yes, through that chapter).

Don’t worry about the judgments and condemnations that man will put on you for doing such. The “fire” (hell) aka judgments of God are right and not something to run from … Psalm 19:7-11; Deut 4:12; Zechariah 9:13.

This was the only way that I personally was able to make sense of all the confusion … to throw out what all “they” taught me and to rather only accept Truth … no matter the consequences. It was God I was seeking … not man’s version. I would be curious to see if another is able to take these steps and where it would lead them.

Dear Simplynoone,

I read all of the Bible references and if I am understanding you, you are saying the fallowing:

We need to know God in our heart by letting God teach us with His own breath. We need to keep the laws He teaches us and teach them to others and we need to show ourselves better than the scribes and pharisees.

The laws of God are the Ten Commandments.

The laws of God are perfect and God’s instructions never fail.

If I am understanding you correctly, then I would have to say I believe this is good advice.

If you do not mind me asking how do you listen to God and know what you are hearing is from God and or is it just yourself answering?
I myself wonder when I listen for God if I am actually hearing Him our just myself answering.

Thank you for posting.
Praying and looking forward to hearing from you.

 

[chaunceygardner]

The Tower of Babel metaphor is a very good one. When I first logged on to CAF I was impressed by the diversity of beliefs represented. But as I read various threads, I was somewhat shocked by the un-Christian attitudes of so many posters. Everyone attacked everyone else. I must admit I fell into that mode myself a few times. While there are many members who can hold an intelligent conversation and discuss ideas about faith, there are way too many whose only response is to “shout back”, denigrating the posts of others and attacking them and their beliefs personally, but not really addressing the other person’s points or ideas.

We see the same thing in the battle of religions, especially those who fall under the label of “Christian”. Many who espouse various Christian religions are anything but Christian. Yet, as the OP says, we have much more in common than we have differences. Humility is the key, and a willingness to accept that we are all trying to attain the same goal. We must let the light of God into our lives and in turn bring that light to others, no matter who they are; not to change them, or convince them of our own righteousness, but to help them to see and touch God.

Mother Teresa, as blessed as she was, drew flack from Catholics who thought she should be converting the people of India that she cared for. And the Indians were wary of her at first because they thought she WOULD try to convert those she served. They were both wrong. This is what she said:

I do convert. I convert you to be a better Hindu, a better Catholic, a better Muslim, or Jain or Buddhist. I would like to help you to find God.

When Mother Teresa was with a dying person, she would hold them and say they were both going to pray to God, together, each in the manner of their respective religions. She was sending them to God, an all encompassing God, neither a Christian, Muslim or Hindu God. Just God. This is what Mother Teresa said:

Every person has an origin in God, and in every human being God dwells. For me, my God is Jesus. For a Hindu, he may be Shiva or Vishnu or Brahma. For a Muslim, Allah. If a person lies unconscious, I always request another person, perhaps a Sister or Brother or volunteer, to sit next to the dying person and hold his or her hand, to ask pardon for the sins he or she committed, or make an act of love or faith for God.

Most of us have not learned to do that yet, we cannot think about “One God of all”. Too many of us think our view of God is the only correct one, our way of worshipping God is the right way and the only way. Even within individual Christian religions, whether Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Baptist, Episcopalian, etc., we emphasize disagreements and differences that tend to separate us from one another, rather than the core beliefs that unite us.

Yes. we all have constructed a Tower of Babel, built with our pride, and God has knocked it down, and now is trying to get us to communicate with one another, to find common understanding, to accept others as they are, and to work in unity rather than in divisiveness in responding to His word.

We must replace the pride of religion with the simple faith and humility of a Mother Teresa, and of Mary. It is sad that something so basic should be so very difficult.

 

[simple_soul]

The Tower of Babel metaphor is a very good one. When I first logged on to CAF I was impressed by the diversity of beliefs represented. But as I read various threads, I was somewhat shocked by the un-Christian attitudes of so many posters. Everyone attacked everyone else. I must admit I fell into that mode myself a few times. While there are many members who can hold an intelligent conversation and discuss ideas about faith, there are way too many whose only response is to “shout back”, denigrating the posts of others and attacking them and their beliefs personally, but not really addressing the other person’s points or ideas.

We see the same thing in the battle of religions, especially those who fall under the label of “Christian”. Many who espouse various Christian religions are anything but Christian. Yet, as the OP says, we have much more in common than we have differences. Humility is the key, and a willingness to accept that we are all trying to attain the same goal. We must let the light of God into our lives and in turn bring that light to others, no matter who they are; not to change them, or convince them of our own righteousness, but to help them to see and touch God.

Mother Teresa, as blessed as she was, drew flack from Catholics who thought she should be converting the people of India that she cared for. And the Indians were wary of her at first because they thought she WOULD try to convert those she served. They were both wrong. This is what she said:

When Mother Teresa was with a dying person, she would hold them and say they were both going to pray to God, together, each in the manner of their respective religions. She was sending them to God, an all encompassing God, neither a Christian, Muslim or Hindu God. Just God. This is what Mother Teresa said:

Most of us have not learned to do that yet, we cannot think about “One God of all”. Too many of us think our view of God is the only correct one, our way of worshipping God is the right way and the only way. Even within individual Christian religions, whether Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Baptist, Episcopalian, etc., we emphasize disagreements and differences that tend to separate us from one another, rather than the core beliefs that unite us.

Yes. we all have constructed a Tower of Babel, built with our pride, and God has knocked it down, and now is trying to get us to communicate with one another, to find common understanding, to accept others as they are, and to work in unity rather than in divisiveness in responding to His word.

We must replace the pride of religion with the simple faith and humility of a Mother Teresa, and of Mary. It is sad that something so basic should be so very difficult.

Dear Chaunceygardner,

Wow! I really do need to get my hands on some of the books on the life of Mother Theresa.

I too must admit that from time to time I fall into an argumentative state and tend to loose my love and charity for the one I am arguing with. I believe that every time I do I somehow start to damage my relationship with God and it makes me sick to my stomach.

For anyone who is interested, JReducation started a thread in the Spirituality Forum that is titled “Does the arguing help us reach mystical union?” that has some really sound insight and advice on it as to how we can converse with each other in a way that keeps us from pointless arguing. It might help us. I know it has helped me.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts,

Always praying and pondering

 

[simplynoone]

Dear Simplynoone,

I read all of the Bible references and if I am understanding you, you are saying the fallowing:

We need to know God in our heart by letting God teach us with His own breath. We need to keep the laws He teaches us and teach them to others and we need to show ourselves better than the scribes and pharisees.

The laws of God are the Ten Commandments.

The laws of God are perfect and God’s instructions never fail.

If I am understanding you correctly, then I would have to say I believe this is good advice.

The Law of God is cause and effect. The Laws given to the Jewish by God via Moses are based on cause and effect for slavish mentality (those laws were beneficial for correcting my perspective that had been distorted via Christianity … however, Christianity was necessary to understand why “covering” is useless as opposed to accepting the consequences of my actions). I think that if one wants to learn from the “mouth” of God, then true … to face what is written in Torah without any extra stipulation (to cover fear or to gain reward) is beneficial. Proverbs 2:1-11

The commands, though, given specifically to the Gentiles are inferred in Genesis 9; the covenant between mankind and God. There are seven … not even 10.

If you do not mind me asking how do you listen to God and know what you are hearing is from God and or is it just yourself answering?
I myself wonder when I listen for God if I am actually hearing Him our just myself answering.

How do I know that I hear the “voice” of God in the words? Jeremiah 42:6 and Psalm 25:9 … what most people fear and try to escape is the very thing that teaches them and gives purpose to life. Israel accepted the judgments of God … and for this, they became usable to God … as do all those who accept the judgments of God instead of looking to cover their ownselves. The Laws of Moses are specifically set up to teach justice and judgment. And as we can see in Genesis 18:19, this was the purpose for God to choose Abraham … to keep the way of the LORD; to teach and do justice and judgment.

The sad thing is, when we seek for consolation in our mind (a cover), we only hide ourselves from knowing His “Voice.” Genesis 3:8,10 The child who listens to their parent and does not ever touch the hot stove is obedient. The child who touches and pays attention to the pain, knows and understands. Most children would not blame their parents for the pain incurred … thus, they learn to better trust their parents’ judgment. Deuteronomy 4:12. The child that praises the parent for their wisdom is the child who blesses and is the blessing of their parents. Psalm 147:19-20

Thank you for posting.
Praying and looking forward to hearing from you.

May God bless you as you seek to know His voice! Psalm 119

 

[simple_soul]

simple soul;5702820:

Dear Simplynoone,

I read all of the Bible references and if I am understanding you, you are saying the fallowing:

We need to know God in our heart by letting God teach us with His own breath. We need to keep the laws He teaches us and teach them to others and we need to show ourselves better than the scribes and pharisees.

The laws of God are the Ten Commandments.

The laws of God are perfect and God’s instructions never fail.

If I am understanding you correctly, then I would have to say I believe this is good advice.

The Law of God is cause and effect. The Laws given to the Jewish by God via Moses are based on cause and effect for slavish mentality (those laws were beneficial for correcting my perspective that had been distorted via Christianity … however, Christianity was necessary to understand why “covering” is useless as opposed to accepting the consequences of my actions). I think that if one wants to learn from the “mouth” of God, then true … to face what is written in Torah without any extra stipulation (to cover fear or to gain reward) is beneficial. Proverbs 2:1-11

The commands, though, given specifically to the Gentiles are inferred in Genesis 9; the covenant between mankind and God. There are seven … not even 10.

If you do not mind me asking how do you listen to God and know what you are hearing is from God and or is it just yourself answering?
I myself wonder when I listen for God if I am actually hearing Him our just myself answering.

How do I know that I hear the “voice” of God in the words? Jeremiah 42:6 and Psalm 25:9 … what most people fear and try to escape is the very thing that teaches them and gives purpose to life. Israel accepted the judgments of God … and for this, they became usable to God … as do all those who accept the judgments of God instead of looking to cover their ownselves. The Laws of Moses are specifically set up to teach justice and judgment. And as we can see in Genesis 18:19, this was the purpose for God to choose Abraham … to keep the way of the LORD; to teach and do justice and judgment.

The sad thing is, when we seek for consolation in our mind (a cover), we only hide ourselves from knowing His “Voice.” Genesis 3:8,10 The child who listens to their parent and does not ever touch the hot stove is obedient. The child who touches and pays attention to the pain, knows and understands. Most children would not blame their parents for the pain incurred … thus, they learn to better trust their parents’ judgment. Deuteronomy 4:12. The child that praises the parent for their wisdom is the child who blesses and is the blessing of their parents. Psalm 147:19-20

Thank you for posting.
Praying and looking forward to hearing from you.

May God bless you as you seek to know His voice! Psalm 119

Dear simplynoon,

I do not even know were to begin with this post other than it almost seems to lead one around in a circle. There are some things in it that I might agree with you on but then again I might not. As for the rest…I will keep praying and pondering it.

May God bless you also as you also seek to know His voice! Matthew 5:1-48

 

[simplynoone]

May God bless you also as you also seek to know His voice!

Thank you!

 

[simple_soul]

Thank you!

No, thank you!