Thoughts on This Statement?

[joandarc2008]

Yes, thanks for the correction. Indeed, the Church had the authority to allow or deny the request for laicization of Fr. Cutie, and chose to deny it. Laicization would have meant two things, it would have released him from his promise of celibacy thus allowing him to get married, and would have released him from his priestly duties. A laicized priest is still a priest, but he is forbidden by the Church to celebrate Mass, consecrate the Eucharist, hear confessions, perform weddings etc. The Church chose not to release Fr. Cutie from his promise of celibacy, but he went ahead anyway and broke his promise and also converted away from the Catholic Church.

Back to your original point, a priest breaking his promise of celibacy commits less of a sin than a married person breaking his vow, and yet the priest will get more attention and will be more widely condemned by people. Thinking about these things only increased my appreciation for how serious a business marriage really is. Yet, it’s not that difficult (there’s not a stringent vetting process of who’s fit to marry and who is not) to walk down the aisle and say I do, without fully realizing the gravity of that decision and of those actions taken. Or, one may be a dissident Catholic, someone who fully understands what Catholic marriage is, but disagrees with some important aspect of it (meant for a lifetime, open to having children, etc), and yet chooses to have a Catholic wedding ceremony, which is the very definition of an invalid (null) marriage.

I guess that’s why we have so many declarations of nullity. People do get married unprepared, or play a game of getting married while disagreeing with and never intending to live up to their marital obligations.

And Mr Varga- this brings up an even better point - I look at my own situation with my husband (soon to be ex) - I found pages of psychological history when he left including personality disorder and a 30 day stint for homicidal ideation - I had no idea. So, if the Church vets priests and asks for these things and examines these things because they will be responsible for the care of souls - why would we not do the same for couples entering into marriage who will be responsible for the care of the souls of children. There are things that could be done in situations to properly prepare like mandatory counseling - therapy for psychological problems, disclosure to the soon-to-be spouse. I don’t think all of this is unneccessary. I have lost everything - now granted i have learned much about redemptive suffering - and now through the anullment process he may end up with permanent impediment to marry through a tribunal - but it seems like there should have been a better way.

 

[KostyaJMJ]

And Mr Varga- this brings up an even better point - I look at my own situation with my husband (soon to be ex) - I found pages of psychological history when he left including personality disorder and a 30 day stint for homicidal ideation - I had no idea. So, if the Church vets priests and asks for these things and examines these things because they will be responsible for the care of souls - why would we not do the same for couples entering into marriage who will be responsible for the care of the souls of children. There are things that could be done in situations to properly prepare like mandatory counseling - therapy for psychological problems, disclosure to the soon-to-be spouse. I don’t think all of this is unneccessary. I have lost everything - now granted i have learned much about redemptive suffering - and now through the anullment process he may end up with permanent impediment to marry through a tribunal - but it seems like there should have been a better way.

The Church has to respect the natural right of man to marry. So the Church has to show pastoral care for people who fail to use the gift of discernment when entering into a marriage, but none of the laws they impose can violate Divine Law - any requirements must respect the natural right to marry. The same isn’t true for the priesthood and religious life. There is no natural right to become a priest or a religious so the vetting process is much more extensive and there are more restrictions on who can and can’t enter.

 

[joandarc2008]

The Church has to respect the natural right of man to marry. So the Church has to show pastoral care for people who fail to use the gift of discernment when entering into a marriage, but none of the laws they impose can violate Divine Law - any requirements must respect the natural right to marry. The same isn’t true for the priesthood and religious life. There is no natural right to become a priest or a religious so the vetting process is much more extensive and there are more restrictions on who can and can’t enter.

I understand that but what I mentioned above was cases where a possible impediment is known to the clergy preparing the couple but is being withheld from one of the soon-to-be-spouses under the umbrella of “confideltiality” from a prior relationship on of the couple may have had with that clergy. That is not a natural right to marry that is a manipulation of Church law to enter a fraudulent marriage.

 

[dailey]

This was my Face Book status this morning and I would be curious to know what you guys think as I know what I think:

Here is the amazing irony and misunderstanding we have of vocation- look at our reaction to a priest that cannot meet the requirements of his vows. We are outraged. Then look at our reactions to a man or woman that walks out on their spouse for another- we say things like do not judge. Have we stopped teaching that marriage is a lifelong vocational Sacrament given to us by Christ just as Holy Orders are?

Wow…i never thought of it that way. Good point

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

I understand that but what I mentioned above was cases where a possible impediment is known to the clergy preparing the couple but is being withheld from one of the soon-to-be-spouses under the umbrella of “confideltiality” from a prior relationship on of the couple may have had with that clergy. That is not a natural right to marry that is a manipulation of Church law to enter a fraudulent marriage.

It’s a shame that things were covered up from you, Joan. I hope your diocese will learn a lesson, and put it on record that your (ex)husband has a permanent impediment to marriage, due to persistent mental health problems. The last thing we need is for him to go on and dupe someone else into marriage after this. His homicidal ideation is scary. Are you safe, now?

 

[EasterJoy]

Here is the amazing irony and misunderstanding we have of vocation- look at our reaction to a priest that cannot meet the requirements of his vows. We are outraged. Then look at our reactions to a man or woman that walks out on their spouse for another- we say things like do not judge. Have we stopped teaching that marriage is a lifelong vocational Sacrament given to us by Christ just as Holy Orders are?

Well, actually, I’m more sad than outraged, in either case.

If you have your leg cut off, it is necessary if there was gangrene and impossible to understand if the leg was sound, but it is incredibly sad in either case. The leg was part of you, and its gone. It is a huge loss, whether or not you are aware of the magnitude of what was lost.

While there are some, I suppose, who enter marriage with divorce as a possible option, I don’t think there are many that have it as an even remotely desired outcome. How much less would anyone go through seminary and enter the priesthood with the idea that laicization is a possible option. The man would have to be some kind of a nut.

By “do not judge”, I think the message is not that we refuse to objectively recognize what is bad and what is good. The message is that we ought not give ourselves the luxury of imagining that we are different than the person who could do such a thing. Rather, “there, but for the grace of God, go I.” Whether that is a grace that spared us trial or the great grace of perseverence hardly matters. If God were not our help, that would be us. That is why the Pharisee praying “thank you for not making me like other man” did not go home justified, and the tax collector who prayed “have mercy on me, a sinner” did.

I heard a very good homily on abortion once that pointed out that very few in the church that day had probably ever had or would ever have an abortion. So on the Sunday when the subject of abortion, what is there to say for those who aren’t going to face this temptation? His question was this: were you a help or a hindrance to the person faced with this choice? Did you make virtue harder or easier? Did they know they could count on you to help them carry their crosses in this life?

Well, how do we answer that?

If you see a couple divorcing or a priest leaving the priesthood, ask yourself how to a) show compassion for the persons and help them to the most virtuous course and b) whether there is someone else you know that could use your support as they approach the same crossroads. Maybe that should be our response, when we hear of this kind of thing.

Support your pastor’s priesthood, and all those you know in the priesthood and religious life. Help him to keep from being lonely. The Lord promised "Amen, I say to you, there is no one who has given up house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands for my sake and for the sake of the gospel who will not receive a hundred times more now in this present age: houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and eternal life in the age to come." (Mark 10: 29-30) Try to make sure that you don’t know any priests or religious who lack family, when you could have been there for them.

And pray for perseverance, for all Catholics, but especially for our priests, who are greatly tested in this shortage and especially during these scandals. Do it every day. It is greatly needed in this age.

 

[joandarc2008]

Well, actually, I’m more sad than outraged, in either case.

If you have your leg cut off, it is necessary if there was gangrene and impossible to understand if the leg was sound, but it is incredibly sad in either case. The leg was part of you, and its gone. It is a huge loss, whether or not you are aware of the magnitude of what was lost.

While there are some, I suppose, who enter marriage with divorce as a possible option, I don’t think there are many that have it as an even remotely desired outcome. How much less would anyone go through seminary and enter the priesthood with the idea that laicization is a possible option. The man would have to be some kind of a nut.

By “do not judge”, I think the message is not that we refuse to objectively recognize what is bad and what is good. The message is that we ought not give ourselves the luxury of imagining that we are different than the person who could do such a thing. Rather, “there, but for the grace of God, go I.” Whether that is a grace that spared us trial or the great grace of perseverence hardly matters. If God were not our help, that would be us. That is why the Pharisee praying “thank you for not making me like other man” did not go home justified, and the tax collector who prayed “have mercy on me, a sinner” did.

I heard a very good homily on abortion once that pointed out that very few in the church that day had probably ever had or would ever have an abortion. So on the Sunday when the subject of abortion, what is there to say for those who aren’t going to face this temptation? His question was this: were you a help or a hindrance to the person faced with this choice? Did you make virtue harder or easier? Did they know they could count on you to help them carry their crosses in this life?

Well, how do we answer that?

If you see a couple divorcing or a priest leaving the priesthood, ask yourself how to a) show compassion for the persons and help them to the most virtuous course and b) whether there is someone else you know that could use your support as they approach the same crossroads. Maybe that should be our response, when we hear of this kind of thing.

Support your pastor’s priesthood, and all those you know in the priesthood and religious life. Help him to keep from being lonely. The Lord promised "Amen, I say to you, there is no one who has given up house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands for my sake and for the sake of the gospel who will not receive a hundred times more now in this present age: houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and eternal life in the age to come." (Mark 10: 29-30) Try to make sure that you don’t know any priests or religious who lack family, when you could have been there for them.

And pray for perseverance, for all Catholics, but especially for our priests, who are greatly tested in this shortage and especially during these scandals. Do it every day. It is greatly needed in this age.

EasterJoy - you made me cry - and between what you and Joseph Varga said- here is the main issue that you summed up.

If someone is entering either vocation with the idea that it is not permament than it is not their natural right to enter this vocation. This is a God-given Vocation - both of them- established by Christ- to be life long except in rare cases where mistakes are made and there are impediments in the beginning.

The sad part in my case is yes - in my case most likely the Tribunal which will be the area I am moving to not where I was married as I am moving pretty much across country to stay with my parents - leaving my home tomorrow permamently after having been in this area of the country for seven years and this home for almost two. And it is OK - This will never happen to another Catholci woman again by him as long as she obeys the Canons God willing