- Status
M
musicality
Guest
I don’t have statistical information; however, out of all of my Catholic friends here at my university, one of the biggest complaints I hear is that they do not like the music. [Much of this also has to do with the fact that many people do not participate in song!] My friends and I have stopped going to Mass on campus because of this, and we now attend a parish in the center of town which has slightly better music. (They generally have several cantors accompanied by an organist.)
To be honest, I’m not expecting Catholic parishes to start having rock bands playing next to the altar, but I would hope that the music being played would encourage participation in the Mass by young Catholics.
L
Little_Dove
Guest
Dear Benedictgal,
What do you think of the song in the OCP entitled “In the Land there is a Hunger?” The lyrics not only make me not want to participate in singing (and I don’t sing this when it is part of our mass), I’ve wept during this song. It is usually sung during Communion (as recommended by the OCP). Am I the only one who has problems with the lyrics,
" In the land there is a hunger, in the land there is a need, not for the taste of water, not for the taste of bread, in the land there is a hunger, in the land there is a need, for the word of God, upon every word we feed."
Anybody else have difficulty with negating the importance of water and bread in the Sacramental life of the Church!!!
To Jesus, through Mary
B
benedictgal
Guest
As I said before, a lot of it, most of it, actually, has a lot to do with what I have called liturgical ignorance. The fact that these folks have probably not been exposed to genunine sacred music plays an important role. I experienced this twice, first with the Cathedral children’s choir and then with the youth Cursillo. The first rector wanted the children to sing real sacred music. The choir director was dead set against it. The rector told me to select the music so that the kids could learn it. The first one was O Come, O Come Emmanuel. He wanted it played with the organ. Again, the choir director rebelled. He wanted guitars and banjos. The rector prevailed and the kids found the traditional music easier to learn than the drek that they had been singing. Eventually, they sang the Attende Domine, O Sun of Justice, Creator of the Stars of Night, How Firm a Foundation, I Heard the Voice of Jesus Say and Word of God Come Down on Earth.
The youth Cursillo leader was bent on having to play everything with a guitar. I told the spiritual director that the young people needed to start learning the Church’s traditional sacred music. We tried it with Advent, starting, again, with O Come, O Come Emmanuel. The music leader was bent on doing it with a guitar and he nearlly killed it. I told him to stop. We do not need a guitar for this song. The kids got to sing it loud and proud without the guitar.
I am hopeful that the new document from the Holy See, whenever it will come, will set some definitive standards. We need them.
B
benedictgal
Guest
Most, if not all, of OCP’s stuff is horizontally driven with very littlel in the vertical direction. OCP does not have any doctrinal nor liturgical authority whatsoever. It is not a sub-department of the USCCB, let alone the Holy See. That is why I don’t sing a lot of the stuff in my parish. It is doctrinally, theologically and liturgically deficient and has no place in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
S
Sarabande
Guest
I was pleasantly surprised the other day when a friend of mine told me about this Newman Center choir from a local university came to sing at the parish. When I heard Newman Center, I immediately thought guitars and whatnot as that was how it was at my Newman Center (which was involved in until my senior year and joined a traditional choir which did more of the traditional chant, polyphony and other kinds of motets). Well, was I surprised to hear that this choir was doing these incredibly beautiful, traditional motets (like the Biebel “Ave Maria”) and also lovely choral settings of hymns. The priest who ran the Newman Center said that they brought these kids in with the guitars, but then when they heard this music they were so incredibly intrigued, they had to know more, learn more and loved it so much, started this choir. Now, that gives me hope.
B
benedictgal
Guest
That gives me hope, as well. There is something about genuinely sacred music that pierces the soul; it is like an arrow.
S
Sarabande
Guest
As a musician, worshiping through “song” is important to me. I feel most connected to God and to the deepest inner workings of myself (which is basically one’s soul, I believe) when I sing or listen to an instrumental work. That said, not everyone is moved or brought to a deep connection to God through music. To me, just because people do not sing, it doesn’t mean that they are less passionate. Sometimes, if I’m in the congregation and the choir is singing a gorgeous sacred motet, just listening to it brings me to a closer connection to God. I don’t need to sing.
At the same time, I think everyone singing along at mass is relatively new for Catholics compared to Protestants. That and a serious lack of talent in the musicianship of the leaders, really bad cantors that can’t sing right pitches or correct rhythms throwing everyone off, cantors or music groups who think that they can take the opportunity either to be an opera star, broadway star or rock star - thus making it impossible for congregations to join in, funeral dirge tempi, poor hymn choices, etc.
Other problems is that the society has brought in this “service-base” attitude into their churches. It’s this attitude of what can the Church do to entertain them or keep them involved. Not what can they do to help make their parish and the Church better - such as for this thread, encouraging their children to study music and other arts so that they can have better Catholic musicians and artists in the Church, having them learn their sacred music history by promoting teachers or music directors, who actually have a real love for their traditions up to modern day, to do this for the children and the adults. Having a music director who doesn’t have a real love for it, just won’t be able to really show the beauty of it either in the rendering of the music or in the teaching of it.
Also, there is this belief of music at mass being just various sections - which it is at most masses. But there was a time when you just didn’t sing at the mass, you “sang the mass”, which, if you have ever been fortunate enough to attend a mass like that where everything is chanted AND sung and has a specific meaning to it from the propers and antiphons to the motets, the psalms, hymns and even the chanting of the readings, it is a most profound thing. You can honestly see where “singing the mass” can make much more sense than just singing at the mass with hymn at section A, hymn at section B, C, D etc. Granted, mass does take A LOT longer, but it is incredible and unique for those special masses.
At the same time, I think everyone singing along at mass is relatively new for Catholics compared to Protestants. That and a serious lack of talent in the musicianship of the leaders, really bad cantors that can’t sing right pitches or correct rhythms throwing everyone off, cantors or music groups who think that they can take the opportunity either to be an opera star, broadway star or rock star - thus making it impossible for congregations to join in, funeral dirge tempi, poor hymn choices, etc.
Other problems is that the society has brought in this “service-base” attitude into their churches. It’s this attitude of what can the Church do to entertain them or keep them involved. Not what can they do to help make their parish and the Church better - such as for this thread, encouraging their children to study music and other arts so that they can have better Catholic musicians and artists in the Church, having them learn their sacred music history by promoting teachers or music directors, who actually have a real love for their traditions up to modern day, to do this for the children and the adults. Having a music director who doesn’t have a real love for it, just won’t be able to really show the beauty of it either in the rendering of the music or in the teaching of it.
Also, there is this belief of music at mass being just various sections - which it is at most masses. But there was a time when you just didn’t sing at the mass, you “sang the mass”, which, if you have ever been fortunate enough to attend a mass like that where everything is chanted AND sung and has a specific meaning to it from the propers and antiphons to the motets, the psalms, hymns and even the chanting of the readings, it is a most profound thing. You can honestly see where “singing the mass” can make much more sense than just singing at the mass with hymn at section A, hymn at section B, C, D etc. Granted, mass does take A LOT longer, but it is incredible and unique for those special masses.
V
VociMike
Guest
Great story, and it just confirms what I have experienced. I also have witnessed a situation where college students were exposed for the first time to their sacred patrimony, their treasure of inestimable value. And their response was the same - we want this, we love this. Not to mention that it is so counter-cultural, in the truest sense of the word, and that has a deep appeal to young people, so many of whom are looking for something deeper than the culture can give them.
P
Phemie
Guest
I’m seeing some of the stuff I read here in my own parish. They are trying to implement a children’s choir and last Sunday I listened as they practiced with them after Mass.
Instead of using the hymns found in the national hymnal, they are made to sing songs that came out of the school catechetical programs of the 70s and 80s. “This is the Day” and al.
These kids are capable of singing so much more but the adult leaders are teachers/retired teachers who are using the stuff they used in the classrooms when our schools were still Catholic.
Instead of using the hymns found in the national hymnal, they are made to sing songs that came out of the school catechetical programs of the 70s and 80s. “This is the Day” and al.
These kids are capable of singing so much more but the adult leaders are teachers/retired teachers who are using the stuff they used in the classrooms when our schools were still Catholic.
S
sabriner
Guest
This may be a little late, but as someone in the age group that musicality addresses (turning 20 this year) I thought it might help to share my personal opinion.
It seems that the heart of the matter lies in understanding the liturgy.
After my reversion, I got to experience worship with different kinds of music and paid attention to how they helped in my prayer. As I said, OCP reigns here, so a lot of these outdated songs run freely. I’ve also worshiped at a LifeTeen Mass where the music is pretty much exactly the same as what musicality is advocating. However, attending Mass that has choral and chant was extremely powerful. The music there was a perfect example of the beauty of God. It seemed as though God Himself had composed the music.
It seems that choral and chant is best for LITURGY because its beauty is universal. I do come across people my age and younger who love this music at the right time, I find that they agree, and that when choral and chant is done right (and everything should be done right in liturgy) it is the most beautiful and prayerful. True, you could say that these traditional hymns are “outdated” but compare their beauty to more modern hymns. It doesn’t compare.
Also, keeping with traditional hymns is a way to be closer to the roots of our Catholic faith.
The reason why I could never understand the beauty of that music was because I had never understood the beauty of liturgy and the Mass in the first place. Instead of trying to evangelize this age group through the music, it seems best to evangelize them about the heart of the matter–Jesus sacrificing Himself to the Father for the sake of all our salvation everyday on all altars throughout the world, and we are there to witness and partake in it! I think something of that magnitude is enough to turn heads, if not create a more “passionate” congregation.
And part of that evangelization is sacred and appropriate music. We need to show people that Mass is heaven on earth, and for that we need “heavenly” music.
There’s nothing really wrong with the more modern hymns–OCP, LifeTeen, whatever it may be–but the issue is when and where.
It seems that the heart of the matter lies in understanding the liturgy.
After my reversion, I got to experience worship with different kinds of music and paid attention to how they helped in my prayer. As I said, OCP reigns here, so a lot of these outdated songs run freely. I’ve also worshiped at a LifeTeen Mass where the music is pretty much exactly the same as what musicality is advocating. However, attending Mass that has choral and chant was extremely powerful. The music there was a perfect example of the beauty of God. It seemed as though God Himself had composed the music.
It seems that choral and chant is best for LITURGY because its beauty is universal. I do come across people my age and younger who love this music at the right time, I find that they agree, and that when choral and chant is done right (and everything should be done right in liturgy) it is the most beautiful and prayerful. True, you could say that these traditional hymns are “outdated” but compare their beauty to more modern hymns. It doesn’t compare.
Also, keeping with traditional hymns is a way to be closer to the roots of our Catholic faith.
The reason why I could never understand the beauty of that music was because I had never understood the beauty of liturgy and the Mass in the first place. Instead of trying to evangelize this age group through the music, it seems best to evangelize them about the heart of the matter–Jesus sacrificing Himself to the Father for the sake of all our salvation everyday on all altars throughout the world, and we are there to witness and partake in it! I think something of that magnitude is enough to turn heads, if not create a more “passionate” congregation.
And part of that evangelization is sacred and appropriate music. We need to show people that Mass is heaven on earth, and for that we need “heavenly” music.
There’s nothing really wrong with the more modern hymns–OCP, LifeTeen, whatever it may be–but the issue is when and where.
B
Brendan
Guest
Because that is all they have. They do not have the Eucharist, they do not have Christ Substantially Present beffore them. They do not have the Pure Sacrifice being offered before them.
The Jewish Temple, and before that, the Tent (Tabernacle) of the Ark, were types, precursors of the altar we have in our parishes.
Did the Jews go up to the Temple to chant Psalms, is that why Christ and the Apostles went there, to sing?
No, they went there because there was the Sacrifice for the sins of the People, there was where God dwells.
And that is why we have the Mass now. If there was not a single chord of music played, the Mass would still be the most profound act of worship in all of material creation.
B
Brendan
Guest
Thanks Sabriner.
I too had a similar experience. In the parish youth group we belonged to, we rocked with the best of them. But that was at our meetings, at our picnics etc…
Mass was a different story, we had a different kind of music because Mass is a different kind of place. The object is not to make Mass more like our daily lives, but to make our daily lives more like the Mass.
The Mass is a trancendent reality, and it calls for a trancendent experience. Brining in the common music forms makes for a common experience, when the uncommon is called for.
M
musicality
Guest
Going back and looking over this thread, I think what I am most concerned about now is that the music seems to be the most neglected part of Mass at some of the parishes that I have gone to.
Specifically, at my college’s chapel, the microphone for the cantor is not properly leveled and they opt to use a piano instead of the organ. As a result, the music does not fill the chapel because of the chapel’s acoustics (big with really high ceilings). So, the result is that people can hear individuals singing (and most people, unless they are performers actually do not feel comfortable hearing their own voice more than that of the cantor).
This is one of many reasons that my friends and I go to the local parish in town rather than going to Mass on campus each Sunday.
So, I guess what I am most concerned about at this point is the quality (from a purely musical perspective) of the music. (Of course the music should reflect the standards the church.)
Some of examples of what I would consider to be well arranged, and balanced pieces:
youtube.com/watch?v=CmRJMoMvkWY&fmt=18
youtube.com/watch?v=_KwIH31fUmc&fmt=18
youtube.com/watch?v=MvpjxfWrjzY&fmt=18
(I don’t expect every church to have the depth of talent that is depicted in the above videos, or all the instruments… These are just examples to strive towards. Also, I would take the drums out of the last one… they don’t do much for me.)
Specifically, at my college’s chapel, the microphone for the cantor is not properly leveled and they opt to use a piano instead of the organ. As a result, the music does not fill the chapel because of the chapel’s acoustics (big with really high ceilings). So, the result is that people can hear individuals singing (and most people, unless they are performers actually do not feel comfortable hearing their own voice more than that of the cantor).
This is one of many reasons that my friends and I go to the local parish in town rather than going to Mass on campus each Sunday.
So, I guess what I am most concerned about at this point is the quality (from a purely musical perspective) of the music. (Of course the music should reflect the standards the church.)
Some of examples of what I would consider to be well arranged, and balanced pieces:
youtube.com/watch?v=CmRJMoMvkWY&fmt=18
youtube.com/watch?v=_KwIH31fUmc&fmt=18
youtube.com/watch?v=MvpjxfWrjzY&fmt=18
(I don’t expect every church to have the depth of talent that is depicted in the above videos, or all the instruments… These are just examples to strive towards. Also, I would take the drums out of the last one… they don’t do much for me.)
M
Monica4316
Guest
it does make me sad to see “lukewarm” Catholics, but I think we can’t always say that someone is “lukewarm” cause they aren’t singing, etc. Sometimes when I go to Mass I just quietly sit there and pray… but all the while, I’m praying and trying to participate in the Mass. I just do it in a different way. Perhaps from the outside, it seems like I’m just bored, but I’m notI don’t know about you, but I have a huge problem with the large amount of people who are not passionate about their faith. I realize that everyone is at a different point in their faith journey, but I have noticed a general trend. During virtually all of the Protestant services that I have attended, people sing passionately and use song as worship.
I only wish that I could say the same for my fellow Catholics. Oftentimes parishioners do not participate in song. Why is it that so many Catholics are not passionate in praising Christ? How many times do you see people leaving the church before the closing song is finished?
It seems to me that many Catholics do not attend mass to praise God, but attend out of obligation.
I only wish that I could find a Catholic mass where people are as passionate about their faith as my Protestant friends. It would be even better if the parish I currently attend would be transformed to be passionate.
I think maybe the Mass is just different than a Protestant service… more reflective, meditative, less ‘expressive’. We don’t worship God primarily through music, but through the Eucharist. The music is just meant to help us.
I think you can really tell a devout parish if there’s reverence for the Eucharist… what makes me sad is when no one genuflects or pays attention to the Blessed Sacrament at all
C
Cat
Guest
Why do you have to give up one to have the other?!
What’s wrong with being reverent to Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, reflective in prayer, contemplative during the readings, silent when silence is called for, but also singing and playing with zeal and fervor?
Sorry folks, but I think that Catholics are using the "“we are quieter, more contemplative, and less expressive in Mass” thing as an excuse for our really ho-hum, lackluster music.
There is absolutely no reason why we should not sing out with a full voice with joy and complete attention during the hymns or chants. To do anything less, IMO, is not reverent.
What’s wrong with being reverent to Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, reflective in prayer, contemplative during the readings, silent when silence is called for, but also singing and playing with zeal and fervor?
Sorry folks, but I think that Catholics are using the "“we are quieter, more contemplative, and less expressive in Mass” thing as an excuse for our really ho-hum, lackluster music.
There is absolutely no reason why we should not sing out with a full voice with joy and complete attention during the hymns or chants. To do anything less, IMO, is not reverent.
L
Little_Dove
Guest
L
Little_Dove
Guest
Dear Sabriner,
That was just beautifully said! I am so very joyful and hopeful when I see young people such as yourself deeply worshipful of the Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament…and so appreciative of the Holy Mass. I think you hit it right on target. After you interiorize the significance and power of the mass and the graces that are poured out in each celebration of the mass, where could you possibly go? Yes, I surely do appreciate beautiful music but even when the music is not perfect, the mass is the mass. It is truly heaven on earth!
God richly bless you!
To Jesus, through Mary
T
Trad_Julia
Guest
I’m one of those oddball young people who’s always preferred traditional to contemporary styles of music, especially in a religious setting. I’ve recently opted to attend the earliest mass on Sunday mornings, simply because it’s not encumbered by the, in my opinion, shallowness of “Here I am, Lord”, “I am the Bread of Life”, “Do Not Be Afraid”, etc. I’d rather sit quietly in a solemnly reverent Mass without music than have to listen to an often barely trained cantor plaintively humdrum his way through these songs, even if their lyrics are based on (or taken directly from) Scripture.
I understand that this music often raises the proverbial spirits of the congregation, but when compared to, say, the great works of any of the composers of Latin or even many traditional Anglican hymns, the lyrical and musical simplicity of modern worship music becomes woefully apparent. It doesn’t remind me that I am in the presence of God at the Mass, but rather that I’m with other people, which really isn’t the point.
I understand that this music often raises the proverbial spirits of the congregation, but when compared to, say, the great works of any of the composers of Latin or even many traditional Anglican hymns, the lyrical and musical simplicity of modern worship music becomes woefully apparent. It doesn’t remind me that I am in the presence of God at the Mass, but rather that I’m with other people, which really isn’t the point.
- Status