Three Popes and a Patriarch

  • Thread starter Thread starter ComplineSanFran
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
If the seals on the Popes letters were intact, he probably would have…
He had a hatred for a lot of things Latin. In his letter to the Patriarch of Antioch he criticised the Latins for petty things like shaving their beards as justification for the poor relations between Rome and Comstantinople.

Before he even saw the seals he gave the cardinal a hard time in even getting to have sit down. I think he gave the cardinal a run around for two weeks , strategically delaying the meeting.

This in part explains why Cardinal Humbert was very hostile towards the Patriarch… because Humbert had been extremely disrespected.
 
Please there’s no need for one sided polemics. It’s 2017. The leaders of our respective churches agreed to put the whole incident out of memory in 1965. They just met together with the leader of the Copts in Cairo last weekend to try to bring all the ancient churches into communion once again. Let’s help them and pray for them as best we can.
What I posted wasn’t “one-sided polemics”, it was an attempt to balance out your one-sided version of history. If you want to put history behind us, I support that, but don’t give misleading accounts of history and then suddenly switch to the “high road”.
 
What I posted wasn’t “one-sided polemics”, it was an attempt to balance out your one-sided version of history. If you want to put history behind us, I support that, but don’t give misleading accounts of history and then suddenly switch to the “high road”.
The only point I’ve been trying to make in this thread is that Cardinal Humbert did not have the authority to excommunicate the Patriarch of Constantinople, which should not be an objectionable statement to anyone.
 
The only point I’ve been trying to make in this thread is that Cardinal Humbert did not have the authority to excommunicate the Patriarch of Constantinople, which should not be an objectionable statement to anyone.
I’m surprised that a Pope’s authority ends when he dies. Does that mean we can roll back some past statements made by Popes.
 
Are you saying that the Papal Bull of excommunication was not in fact Papal?
Correct.

The excommunication would have (well, arguably) been papal if the pope that Cardinal Humbert represented was still alive.

But I’d very like to ask you: does it really even matter all that much whether one 11th century Patriarch was excommunicated or not?
 
Correct.

The excommunication would have (well, arguably) been papal if the pope that Cardinal Humbert represented was still alive.

But I’d very like to ask you: does it really even matter all that much whether one 11th century Patriarch was excommunicated or not?
The Pope had died prior to Cardinal Humbert issuing issuing the excommunication, correct? Essentially, the Cardinal’s authority to do such a thing as a Papal act had expired (unbeknownst to the Cardinal).
 
Correct.

The excommunication would have (well, arguably) been papal if the pope that Cardinal Humbert represented was still alive.
I find this very hard to reconcile with other claims regarding the papacy. On the one hand the papacy is an office which exists regardless of whether it is currently filled or awaiting the election of a new pope after the death (or retirement) of the predecessor. As such, whatever authority is given by a pope to his legates comes not from his person but from his office. In contrast to this, you are basically claiming that any such authority evaporates on the death of a pope, which would also render null any authorititive statements made by said pope while he was alive.
Clearly you don’t believe the latter, yet the claim that Cardinal Humbert had no authority because the pope had died flies in the face of that.
 
I find this very hard to reconcile with other claims regarding the papacy. On the one hand the papacy is an office which exists regardless of whether it is currently filled or awaiting the election of a new pope after the death (or retirement) of the predecessor. As such, whatever authority is given by a pope to his legates comes not from his person but from his office. In contrast to this, you are basically claiming that any such authority evaporates on the death of a pope, which would also render null any authorititive statements made by said pope while he was alive.
Clearly you don’t believe the latter, yet the claim that Cardinal Humbert had no authority because the pope had died flies in the face of that.
Please give any example where the actions of a Cardinal during a time when there was no Pope have been treated as the acts of a Pope.
 
What I posted wasn’t “one-sided polemics”, it was an attempt to balance out your one-sided version of history. If you want to put history behind us, I support that, but don’t give misleading accounts of history and then suddenly switch to the “high road”.
Personally I think it’s the height of insanity for Catholics or Orthodox to play “blame games” about people who lived ONE THOUSAND years ago. I will never ever for a split second take even one iota of responsibility for the sins of people so unfathomly far removed from me. You might as well condemn for the sins of David’s second cousin- it’s just beyond absurd. This goes for Catholics and Orthodox.
 
Please give any example where the actions of a Cardinal during a time when there was no Pope have been treated as the acts of a Pope.
Was Patriarch Michael Cerularius removed from the Roman diptychs or not?
 
Was Patriarch Michael Cerularius removed from the Roman diptychs or not?
The Pope had been removed from the diptychs in Constantinople starting in 1012.

I have not seen any historian claim that Rome removed the Patriarch of Constantinople from its diptychs in the 11th Century. If you are aware of anyone who has, please present the cite.

Consider also this:
Pople Leo IX died on 19 April 1054 and the Papal See remained vacant for a year, as Victor II was only elected in April 1055. The fact of Leo’s death was known at Constantinople, as is shown by the first letter of Michael Cerularius to Peter, Patriarch of Antioch, in which he represented the legates as forgers in the employ of Argyrus.
books.google.com/books?id=9lHeh36S8ooC&pg=PT1521&lpg=PT1521&dq=cerularius+in+the+roman+diptych&source=bl&ots=POGZHy-rQb&sig=uQ4_xlOtcx3li3Ey-WaoxKmttS0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwivquOw9t7TAhVIWCYKHW7xA3c4ChDoAQgoMAI#v=onepage&q=diptych&f=false
 
It goes both ways…you are also forgetting that the raising of temperatures can also be attributed to the actions of the Patriarch…he could have acted differently…🤷
Yes, Cerularus certainly could have handled things better, but he was reacting to Rome.
 
I think it’s a bit of a shame that a thread discussing the meeting of the Protos of the three largest apostolic Communions, joined in prayer and fraternal love, not to mention all living claimants to the Alexandrian papal throne, has devolved into a sniper match between Catholic and Orthodox posters. This is a joyful news item, not a place to debate the sins of people who died so long ago they’re about as relevant to me as early European Neanderthals.
 
I’m surprised that a Pope’s authority ends when he dies. Does that mean we can roll back some past statements made by Popes.
In this case, it was more that Cardinal Humbert was a papal delegate sent to Constantinople. Such appointments, up until today, are personal in nature and will lapse with the death of the delegator and the delegate. I don’t think he meant that papal authority in all matters die with the Pope’s death.
Are you saying that the Papal Bull of excommunication was not in fact Papal?
No, due to the vacant see when the Bull was laid on the altar, meaning that Humbert at the point was no longer papal delegate. I would wonder whether Humbert was aware of the Pope’s death three months earlier, which was likely as sea communications between Rome and Constantinople would have been considerably shorter than 3 months, even in those days. So, Humbert’s excommunication bull may not only have been non-papal but could even have been knowingly ultra vires his authority if he knew at that point he did not represent the Pope.

Of course, there is the possibility that Humbert had prior instructions from Leo to issue such an excommunication. We know that Leo had penned a rather aggressive letter in defence of papal rights (even if it was not delivered) and chose the undiplomatic Humbert to deliver it. So, the events could have panned out the way Leo intended. Still, his death would have invalidated Humbert’s authority, especially if Humbert was aware of the side vacante.

Another point is whether was the bull of excommunication of was papal in nature. If it was issued in the name of the Pope, then it would be invalid and we cannot even say that it was a personal excommunication by Humbert onto Cerularius and the patriarchal party. This would only be true if the bull was issued in Humbert’s own name or was at least silent on the name of the issuing party, in which was we can then assume it was Humbert as the Pope was already dead.

In any case, we have to remember that everyone in those days regarded the mutual excommunications as a minor matter and they only took on a significance in the light of subsequent events. Cerularius’ excommunication of only Humber (and the other two delegates?) indicated his reluctance to escalate matters and possibly, his awareness that the Pope was already dead.

The other thing I would like to know is what Victor, Leo’s papal successor, made of Humbert’s report on his return to Rome. I am not aware of any reaction from Victor (please correct me if I am wrong), again indicating what a minor event the excommunication was taken to be.
 
I think it’s a bit of a shame that a thread discussing the meeting of the Protos of the three largest apostolic Communions, joined in prayer and fraternal love, not to mention all living claimants to the Alexandrian papal throne, has devolved into a sniper match between Catholic and Orthodox posters. This is a joyful news item, not a place to debate the sins of people who died so long ago they’re about as relevant to me as early European Neanderthals.
May because the same ego that blew a minor matter into a universal schism is still very much alive today in the thread? A salutary reminder of the fragility of the message the OP intended, perhaps? Myself included?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top