Time and space - what is time?

[BrunoMaria]

WHAT IS TIME? A thing I pondered all my life about, and here is a little roundup I had written for a German forum and now translated for you

Time is the uninfluenceable and unconceivable fact in which we have to stand the test. Our test and probation for heaven. In review midget, in forward look huge. From all angles the opposite of what it seems. Though measurable, time only exists in relation to matter. Merely secularistic. Of relevance within life only, inexistent with death.
Since time doesn’t exist after death, one could slander: …so we’ll stay death ‘til doomsday and not before then will be woken up together with Adam and Eva, Abraham, Moses and all living after us the next 2000 years.
Except for the fact that this idea wouldn’t touch us, since after death time vanished anyway – same as in any anesthesia or coma, when too we don’t have any idea as to how long it lasted – speaks the following truth aloud against this very wrong theory:
**1. **
Christ said to the repentant thug on the cross: Yet today!.. (thus right after death…) you will be with Me at My Fathers. (Luke 23,43) Jesus died on the cross with the words IN YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT. He went to the Father… and He came back. He spoke to many. Many saw Him. The “TODAY” was over. It was the third day. Dismas was as promised, with God, in God’s kingdom – as we will if be live in belief and in God’s word.
Even if we do not believe, God will judge over us after we died. Truths are independent from believe or disbelieve.
2.
The second reason of rebuttal of arguments in this contention, are the very many testified events of decedents on earth. Thousands of such appearances have been proved. Remember Pallotti I spoke so much about and portrayed him. Many others who had died, very obviously too helped living persons. But also Moses and Elijah where seen at Jesus’ transfiguration in Mt 17,3.
3.
The veneration of Saints in our Church. The Dead truly would be honored. At the outmost their remembrance. Saints though, are not dead! They live in God’s splendor, which is far more real than our “reality”. To think decedents where dead, would be too hidebound.
As long as we live, we are grounded on this earth; a tiny spot in time and space in God’s Universe, over which’s borders we are not to look, and just because of time, neither ever will be able to – whichever future technique we will invent, because all here is tied to time of speed and room.
Time is given to us, to utilize it in God’s will. To utilize it, in our presence; for time that has passed, is unchangeable. Time ahead to come, remains in it’s events untouchable – we do not know what will approach us – nor if we undergo it. So; or presence is the one and only time we possess and are able to fill with good things; or if we please – with no-good or even sinful, evil stuff. Good as bad use of our limited time will be decisive for our treasure or dept in heaven we collected. (Mt 16,19)
Time and space so in our existence indeed becomes a imperative necessity for this trial for which God gave us all talents to pass. To fail becomes impossible, if we simply mind two little minor laws:
First of which sounds in Dt 5.6: 'I am the LORD your God, - you shall have no other Gods before me.
Second as said in Lev 19.18: you shall love your neighbor as yourself!
Both of which Jesus merged in Mt 22,37-40: “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.”

If we keep just these two simple commands, all is done, and our way to God’s kingdom is open.

Still; vexation will come over the world, but woe to him, who caused it (Mt 18.7). A word right ahead of us on the blackboard in the room of examination - called earth.

since the system told me:
The text that you have entered is too long (6210 characters). Please shorten it to 6000 characters long.
I will post next part below this.
…

 

[BrunoMaria]

continued from my post above

…So, let’s rejoice in the knowledge of the infinity of time after the time – but rejoice now and here on earth in good spirits, for the Lord is with us always, to the close of the age. (Mt 28.20) And Jesus Christ added in Mt 18.20: For where two or more are gathered in My name, there am I in the midst of them.

Why are anti-Christian falsified theses and slogans widely propagated, and often spread with deadly hate. A person who’s against any theme of nonreligious kind, says so rather casually, and the case is done with. In the case of Christianity the case lays very differently though. Objections are presented in scorn and derision, and torrents of abuse are pored over engaged Christians.
Here we got the prove that this theme touches all opponents of Christianity very painfully in his deepest soul. Of course so, because his soul is God-given and in the back of her mind knows and remembers God. So, it’s a sore thing to disbelievers and will forever be so. The knowledge of God’s being is planted in everybody’s roots, and can be torn out just like that. But if it is torn out, a never healing would will remain, for to this human a lot of himself is missing. He gets ill of disbelieve on soul and body. Disbelieve eventually becomes hate. Hate eats souls and aches until it’s healed – through belief.
Evan a life in clover won’t heal that. Curable is this bleak disease through orientation and steering towards belief only. Steering towards God. All God asks is love. Love to God and our next – His creation. How on earth could anyone object this premises? Where is the slightest reason against Christian belief?

Lets imagine, some firm had the universal remedy “Belief – Love – Hope” in his offers. Exactly this the Church offers ever since her foundation through Jesus Christ. The firm would expand to the greatest in the world, because they would promote and advertise world-wide, and customers would love to pay for it. For faith, hope, love. But it’s to be had for nothing - faith, hope, love and even joy as bonus. Our Church is upholder and caretaker of these presents God gave us, and gives it away for free to those who got ears to hear and eyes to see, and a sense for it’s right use.

Yours
Bruno

 

[GEddie]

While time is said to be an Einsteinian dimension, the sort of time we experience, which goes “forward” from opening our eyes at our birth to rolling them back in death, is a result of the entropy in the material of our human bodies. You do not experience time in death, since you become pneumatikon soma, upon which death releases you.

You are literally one stopped breath away from Eternity itself.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[BrunoMaria]

Though (being a foreigner) I didn’t quite get some of your words; let me say, that contrary to the singular perception of disbelievers, who can not other but to receive time and space in one direction only - as you say: >“forward” from opening one’s eyes at birth to rolling them back in death< - we Christians do live in very much other dimensions of time. Instead of the simple linear view, rather a experiencing of time in rather than the very narrow “reasonable” time beam; in an adding fifth dimension - the heavenly, divine dimension.
I so often told God in prayers - (though we can’t tell God anything He doesn’t know anyhow before we say it {Mt 6,8}) that we as believing Christians, live in two dimensions. The earthly one and the heavenly one. A fact that sometimes turns out to be hard to. This “living in two dimensions” makes a difference to a life in disbelieve, doubters don’t have the vaguest idea about. They call it “faculty of imagination” and will only see after their death, that it’s been more real than life was.

Now I must add here, that I always fight the word DEAD, for nobody ever is dead, nor could ever anybody be dead. Even when atheists would love to be real dead after their death. Decedent go on living, as Angels as well as Humans are immortal (disregarding at the moment, that we got a body that dies and vanishes - which by no means signifies that we ourselves would die. The body here forehand doesn’t matter (even though we get a body back after doomsday), as WE ARE NOT A BODY, but WE ARE A SOUL who’s got a body to survive in a material world. When we discard that matter our body is made of, we are the very WE OURSELVES - living from now on in God’s hemisphere - our destiny. But never being dead.

Yours
Bruno

 

[You]

While time is said to be an Einsteinian dimension, the sort of time we experience, which goes “forward” from opening our eyes at our birth to rolling them back in death, is a result of the entropy in the material of our human bodies. You do not experience time in death, since you become pneumatikon soma, upon which death releases you.

You are literally one stopped breath away from Eternity itself.

ICXC NIKA.

Curious thing about entropy is that life is a sort of anti-entropy. Its like an added dimension to what otherwise would be a straight-line graph of entropy.

 

[GEddie]

Curious thing about entropy is that life is a sort of anti-entropy. Its like an added dimension to what otherwise would be a straight-line graph of entropy.

In a sense it is. But life does not really defeat entropy; it simply creates islands of reduced entropy (in the shape of plants, animals and our bodies) at the cost of porting a greater amount of entropy into the physical world. Those islands also require the steady (name removed by moderator)ut of energy to maintain them (sunlight in plants, chemical oxidation in human body). When the chemical structure deteriorates under entropy, too far for the energy to be processed, the system collapses and is dead.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Sam_777]

(even though we get a body back after doomsday)

Nice article **Bruno **http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif , although I think you should have post it under “Philosophy” section, however, do you have Biblical reference for the recreation of our same bodies at the judgement day?

I understand and believe that we will be spirits which are shaped like our earthy image (the same when Jesus raised in the third day when his disciples did not recognize Him in the beginning), also I Corinthians 15:50-53 seems to support that idea:

"Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. "

 

[GEddie]

Nice article **Bruno **http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif , although I think you should have post it under “Philosophy” section, however, do you have Biblical reference for the recreation of our same bodies at the judgement day?

I understand and believe that we will be spirits which are shaped like our earthy image (the same when Jesus raised in the third day when his disciples did not recognize Him in the beginning), also I Corinthians 15:50-53 seems to support that idea:

"Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. "

“Spirits” do not have a form; the form, and faculties of movement and sensation, come from a physical BODY; which, however, is generated by our spiritual life, therefore pneumatikon soma, ‘spiritual body’, term used in 1Co 15, in contrast to psychikon soma, ‘natural body’, the body made for us by the natural life cycle, which we will wear to our deaths.

While unlike our LORD we do not take our psychikon soma (human body) to Heaven with us, since it lies dead with it’s eyes rolled back; this will NOT prevent us being a BODY! “Egeiretai pneumatikon soma”. You are raised a spiritual body. You receive new life, and new life cannot be poured into an old human skin, rather, everlasting life must be poured into an everlasting human skin!

You do not become a “spirit”, you remain someBODY!

ICXC NIKA!

 

[Sam_777]

“Spirits” do not have a form; the form, and faculties of movement and sensation, come from a physical BODY; which, however, is generated by our spiritual life,

I don’t think that is accurate, because in (Genesis 19:1), LOT welcomed two Angels (a.k.a Spirits) whom came to the city of Sodom, also the Angel who set Peter out of prison in (Acts 12:3-19) all of them have taken some sort of shape so we can see them in our earthy eyes…

You do not become a “spirit”, you remain someBODY!

Jesus in (Matthew 22:30) said will be like the angels in heaven (a.k.a spirits in heaven).

 

[GEddie]

Sure, angels can take on a form, but that is not the same as having a BODY with it’s own physical form.

And our LORD rose physically from death. The Church has always taught that we will do the same. He had hands and feet, as HE showed His follwoers after Resurrection. The “Rich Man” and Lazarus had hands and feet (Luke 16). So will we. Hands and feet are part of a BODY.

Furthermore, HE did not say that we will become angels, but that we will be “like” the angels, in the sense of not engaging in marriage. Pneumatikon soma, being deathless, has no need of procreation.

Our LORD walked, ate, breathed, etc, after his death and Resurrection. He remained someBODY! So will you.

ICXC NIKA!

 

[BrunoMaria]

Sam asked about a Bible reference to my statement, that we after doomsday get our body back - “recreation of our same body”. Well, yes, we do have biblical assurance to get our body back and al lot of evidence too. I however wrote “a body” and avoided the word “our”, for our original body is dust and it’s atoms underwent multiple changes in other compounds. So; the Catholic Encyclopedia for Belief and Church" tells: We will take then our body “WHEREFROM SOEVER”. Here the actual body on material “flesh” is meant. Bible reference we find among others, in Paul’s letter to the Romans 8.11.

At least three (more likely than not, even more) human bodies are in heaven anyhow already - Jesus Christ who resurrected with His body and ascended into heaven with it; - also Elijah and Holy Mary.
Certainly we will be spirits, but the resurrection of our (“a”) new body of ours is clearly said in the Credo and underpinned in RCC # 686 - 990 - and 997 to 1017. In all of them we also find biblical confirmation.

And as to >“Spirits” do not have a form;"< as GEddi stated…
Thats of course not so.
Even as GEddi wrote later “angels can take on a form, but that is not the same as having a BODY with it’s own physical form” - they do have a “body” and individual appearance.
Form and Body of the spirits in heaven - be he Angel or soul of humans, do not have to be any matter (material) to be seen and recognized as such or this individual - as thy all certainly are individuals.
Spirits truly do have a form and this non-material “body” without any stain, flawless and beautiful. Remember the Angels who appeared to so many in the old and New Testament, and even in postbiblical times chronicles told of angels appearances. But also remember the appearance of Saints. Surely they don’t take a form, but they got one, and surely Angels remain same individual “complexional” always, a same surely Arch-Angel Michael or Gabriel don’t keep changing.

Let me in this connection just mention St. Pallotti, who died in 1850 and appeared for instance to the 9 years old boy Alessandro Lutri who 1898 in Rome fell 18m deep on stone and was about to die. Next morning when his mom arrived to see her dying little son in hospital, Alessandro sat absolutely healed, happily on his bed, around him the bloody bandages. To the baffled docs, hospital staff and his mom, he described a priest he had never seen, and when they showed little Alessandro pitures of the 48 years ago descended Priest Pallotti all knew this was the very Fr. Pallotti, his mom had asked in prayers for pleading before Jesus Christ for Alessandro’s healing.
At Pallotti’s beatification 22nd of. Jan. 1950 Alessandro Lutri was present. 1963 Palloti was canonized by Pope John XXIII.

All Saints in heaven - as well as Angels, do not have a body; they are spirits but - very much so, do have a form and “spiritual body”, as many have seen them. Jacob even fought with an Angel Gen 32,23-33. The women on the empty Tomb of Jesus saw Angels sitting there, St. Peter saw them and many others. Zachariah in Lk 1,11 for one, but most important though: Holy Mary in Lk 1.28.
Our guardian Angel by the way, is said to look as we do - match Acts 12,15 - they thought the maiden had seen St. Peter’s Angel.
Actually here we get off topic, and I’d like to recommend that you open another thread like “Spirit and Body” and tell here where it’s continued - if you at all continue this branching-off new theme

Yours
Bruno

 

[tqualey]

Hi, GEddie,

Hold on a bit there… I think Sam_777 has a point here that you really have not addressed.

Besides, what is the basis for you making a distinction between angels taking on a ‘form’ that is not the same as taking on a ‘body’? Look at the Book of Tobit, here we have the archangel Raphael, disguised as a human, and he blends in quite well with all who come in contact with him. No one doubted that Raphael in this disguise had hands and feet.

A spirit by itself has no form, for it is not bounded by physical limitations as we are. A 5 foot man can not change his height to 6 feet just by wishing - but a spirt is not so limited. In Genesis, the Evil Spirit took the form of a snake. And then there is demonic possession where the demon goes into the human!

As I understand your posts, you have really placed too many limits on spirits. Is this what you intended?

God bless

Sure, angels can take on a form, but that is not the same as having a BODY with it’s own physical form.

And our LORD rose physically from death. The Church has always taught that we will do the same. He had hands and feet, as HE showed His follwoers after Resurrection. The “Rich Man” and Lazarus had hands and feet (Luke 16). So will we. Hands and feet are part of a BODY.

Furthermore, HE did not say that we will become angels, but that we will be “like” the angels, in the sense of not engaging in marriage. Pneumatikon soma, being deathless, has no need of procreation.

Our LORD walked, ate, breathed, etc, after his death and Resurrection. He remained someBODY! So will you.

ICXC NIKA!

 

[GEddie]

Hi, GEddie,

Hold on a bit there… I think Sam_777 has a point here that you really have not addressed.
Ok, that point being???)

Besides, what is the basis for you making a distinction between angels taking on a ‘form’ that is not the same as taking on a ‘body’? Look at the Book of Tobit, here we have the archangel Raphael, disguised as a human, and he blends in quite

well with all who come in contact with him. No one doubted that Raphael in this disguise had hands and feet.
He may have appeared to have limbs. But those limbs were not a permanent part of him, rather an appearance for eyes to see. Our limbs, head, shoulders etc are conversely a permanent part of our being, as much so as our mind.

A spirit by itself has no form, for it is not bounded by physical limitations as we are. A 5 foot man can not change his height to 6 feet just by wishing - but a spirt is not so limited. In Genesis, the Evil Spirit took the form of a snake. And then there is demonic possession where the demon goes into the human!

We cannot change our height because we do not have command of the material of our bodies. In the pneumatikon soma, adjustable height may well be standard equipment, no more difficult than expanding our thorax to breathe deeply.

Height is an “accident” of bodyhood, an attribute that can vary. Solidness, limbedness, etc, are not.

Demonic possession actually shows they have no body, as a body cannot occupy another body. Furthermore if demons were bodied, they would not need to possess anybody.

The fact remains that we are designed to be bodies, not spirits. Yes, we lose this soma. But that is an anomaly and a punishment. We will awaken as pneumatikon soma, because Scripture says we shall. We need to. Movement, touching, seeing, smelling, breathing etc are just as much a part of us as thinking and feeling, (You need a solid HEAD to think anyhow, just like you need limbs to move.)

As I understand your posts, you have really placed too many limits on spirits. Is this what you intended?

God bless

And you likewise!

That angels and “spirits” are bodiless is a matter of theology. It is likewise theology that our LORD remains a BODY. And we will regain bodies, whether earthen or Heavenly, if for no other reason than to be held by HIM !

ICXC NIKA

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

There’s a much simpler answer here. Time is God’s way of making sure that everything doesn’t happen at once.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Tarpeian Rock,

That was really pretty good…

God bless

There’s a much simpler answer here. Time is God’s way of making sure that everything doesn’t happen at once.

 

[bmonk]

What is time?

Remember St. Augustine: “What then is time? If no one asks me, I know what it is. If I wish to explain it to him who asks, I do not know.”

We need to distinguish the objective reality of time–which is measured by entropy and such–and the subjective experience, that of successive experiences of a changing, but not totally new, world. Trying to describe time is like describing color: how would you explain to to a blind person? And how can you describe time without using time-derived terms?

Objectively, if we go by Einstein’s Relativity equations, the major difference between time and space is that time has a negative sign relative to space. But what does that really signify?

In the realm of faith, we have an additional way to measure time, just as we have a way to distinguish absolute truth from relative truths: God establishes time, just as God sustains the world. But I’m not sure to go beyond that to a practical measure or definition.