"time to sack trendy bishops and restore the faith "

[Young_Thinker]

Sum ergo cogito:thumbsup:

Funny.

 

[dcastlen50]

Funny.

I am therefore I know

 

[tpw]

How many of those that have entered the Church have even an average knowledge of what the Catholic Faith is, what it teaches and what it believes in?

From my experience and those of other catechists I’ve known people who go through the RCIA receive a very good foundation in Roman Catholicism. But as I always noted to the folks who went through the RCIA there’s always more to learn. As adults it’s up to them how far they wish to go…

More than that, has RCIA incresed the average Catholics understanding of the Faith?

The RCIA isn’t for “average Catholics”. It’s intended to shepherd those who are desirous of being baptized into RC as adults to learn more about the RC tradition or for those whose sacramental preparation isn’t complete.

The average Catholic has access to parish bible studies, conferences, workshops, reading materials and even formal theological study if he/she has the time. But some choose to remain uneducated or miseducated.

I’d also like to suggest that reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church does not mean one “knows” their faith. It’s like saying a person who takes one class on Aquinas “knows” Aquinas…

Based on what I have seen on these forums actual understanding of the faith and it’s teachings seems to be pretty well below average.

And that’s precisely why some people join CA to learn more. But CA doesn’t have all the answers either,nor does any one Catholic group…it’s a long, long, learning curve…

 

[Young_Thinker]

I am therefore I know

Obviously a statement upon which to ponder; thank you for mentioning it.

 

[Young_Thinker]

How many of those that have entered the Church have even an average knowledge of what the Catholic Faith is, what it teaches and what it believes in?

From my experience and those of other catechists I’ve known people who go through the RCIA receive a very good foundation in Roman Catholicism. But as I always noted to the folks who went through the RCIA there’s always more to learn. As adults it’s up to them how far they wish to go…

More than that, has RCIA incresed the average Catholics understanding of the Faith?

The RCIA isn’t for “average Catholics”. It’s intended to shepherd those who are desirous of being baptized into RC as adults to learn more about the RC tradition or for those whose sacramental preparation isn’t complete.

The average Catholic has access to parish bible studies, conferences, workshops, reading materials and even formal theological study if he/she has the time. But some choose to remain uneducated or miseducated.

I’d also like to suggest that reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church does not mean one “knows” their faith. It’s like saying a person who takes one class on Aquinas “knows” Aquinas…

Based on what I have seen on these forums actual understanding of the faith and it’s teachings seems to be pretty well below average.

And that’s precisely why some people join CA to learn more. But CA doesn’t have all the answers either,nor does any one Catholic group…it’s a long, long, learning curve…

Despite my polymathic nature, I could not agree more.

 

[Faith_First]

Well, that use to be the case now the surgeon will be in the same category of income as the bishop once Obama’s Heath care program cuts in. Ask Dr.s in England, Canada, India etc.

Is this tolerance, charity,compassion…or…greed! I just left Mount Auburn Hospitol in Brookline…you should see the palaces these Dr. have throughout this area…I paid $1600.00 to have a splinter removed from my daughter in the E.R…enough of the poor Drs starving in developed nations with national health care or long lines to get medical services …more lies to protect greedy people’s needs for yet a matching Lexus…we only offer the world what we ourselves practice…surrender to Christ or self but never both!

 

[elts1956]

• Jesus!

Hm.

“The floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops.”
St. John Chrysostom (c. 347 - 407), Bishop and Doctor of the Church
Generally considered the most prominent doctor of the Greek Church and (certainly one of) the greatest preacher(s) ever heard in a Christian pulpit.

“The road to hell is paved with the skulls of bishops.”
St. John Eudes (1601 - 1608), Priest and founder of the Congregation of Our Lady of Charity.

So, how much changed in 13 centuries?
Or in the last four since then?

Not much. But then gasoline was added to the fire.

Is this to say that this is all bishops - a resounding ‘NO’. Perhaps those, however, by whose antics are misleading and even scandalizing the Faithful. Those who obfuscate the pristine Faith. Eucharistic theology of Thomas Aquinas reduced to a ‘meal’. Reducing churches to houses for a ‘family’. Those who preach only about the God proximate without preaching about the God transcendent and omnipotent - omniscient - omnipresent.

Those who permit us to think God is lucky to have us rather than the other way around. Those who do not preach that there is no crown without the cross. Those who fail to lead souls to Heaven by preaching the immutable truths about the realities of sin and Satan; about Death, Judgment, Heaven, and Hell.

Perhaps it is a bishop who confers the Sacrament of Confirmation as if it were a night club act instead of insisting upon Christian accontability of the young men and women.
Confirmation imparts:
•an increase of sanctifying grace which makes the recipient a “perfect Christian”;
•a special sacramental grace consisting in the seven gifts of the Holy Ghost and notably in the strength and courage to confess boldly the name of Christ;
•an indelible character by reason of which the sacrament cannot be received again by the same person.
I am certain that you’ve been to a Confirmation where THIS was explained.

God is peppy, makes you feel good. Look at the songs we sing at Mass - music in the diocese must be approved by the bishop - in verse 4 of a ‘pop’ entrance song (can’t dignify it by calling it a hymn), we sing as Pelagian heretics. The songs all about us instead of Him.

+++

“The smoke of Satan has entered the Church!”
Pope Paul VI (Giovanni Battista Montini, 1897 - 1978)

An interesting little bit from a couple of years ago…
insidecatholic.com/Joomla/index.php?option=com_myblog&show=Virgilio-Card.-Noe-on-The-Smoke-of-Satan-.html&Itemid=127

“Say the black, do the red.” Many of our bishops fail to do this. “Redemptoris Sacramentum” is an ‘option’. And lack of unity with the Congregation(s)/Holy See connotes disunity in the Church. I have been in dioceses throughout the U.S. where I have been absolutely shocked as to the shenanigans during Mass. Absolutely illicit; sometimes scarcely valid. And the bishop is responsible for cleaning this up.

“The Desolate City” by Anne Roche Muggeridge is a ‘must-read’ to understand what the bishops did to us in the years following Vatican II.

All of this in the name of “the ‘spirit of Vatican II’”. Where is that mentioned in a Church document anywhere? Who coined that expression, and what does that mean? Upon further reflection, It seems to be drivel to justify ‘anything goes’.

Those of us old enough have witnessed the dissolution (read ‘martyrdom’) of everything we once knew and loved as Catholics in days long past. Sanctuaries gutted and ugliness in its place. Where is Palestrina when we REALLY need him to save (Church) music?
Gregorian Chant is to have ‘pride of place’ in our liturgies (cf. Chapter VI of Sacrosanctum Concilium). When was the last time YOU heard one? Go ahead, think about it. I’ll wait.

Desacralization is rampant; sad to say, many of our bishops have stood idly by and allowed this to happen - heck, some actually encouraged it.

And here’s the rub -

So much rubbish has entered the liturgy from all the bishops who want to be ‘hip’, instead of the shepherd of souls and the principal liturgist of the diocese.

One cannot help but hearken back to the Papal Mass of Benedict XVI in Yankee Stadium and watch one remove mitre and put on a Yankee baseball cap. Befitting the dignity of the office.

+++

One soul in this thread rightly mentioned that many souls have been brought into the Church under our present bishops; and this is heartening. But what did we really bring them into? The pristine Faith, or one diluted, or distored and almost unrecognizable? Have we brought them into the maw of denying the fullness of truth and/or that which (in some instances) resembles mainstream protestantism? We used to profess our Catholic identity with a holy pride; now we mumble. Our bishops have to lead us with courage instead of detente with the lukewarm.

The #1 religion in the U.S. is Catholicism. #2? Lapsed Catholics. Why? Hm.

+++

I was upbraided once. “We do not call it CCD any more, we call it 'Family Catechesis”, the front-office informed me curtly. What is wrong with the ‘Confraternity of Christian Doctrine’?
I got even.
When asked what the gifts of the Holy Spirit (Isaiah 11:1-3) were, Billy responded:
“sapientia, intellectus, scientia, fortitudo, consilium, pietas, timor Domini”
Good lad.

Father cringed (the bishop was otherwise employed and could not administer the Sacrament). May God forgive my pride, but I was trying to make a point)

All of this fruit at the hands of the (some) bishops.

Pray for our bishops and priests. Pray for the Faithful. Pray for the ‘reform of the Reform’.
Pray, pray, pray.

Matthew 3:3

 

[elts1956]

clingermanocds, You have said it all and said it VERY well. I also questioned the statement, given in faith, I am sure, regarding so many converts in the Church. It would be interesting to see if the parishes they joined resemble a Catholic Church, or a Protestant one. I have some Baptist friends who are more Catholic than those saying they are Catholic. We need to keep our voices raised against the weaknesses we see in our clergy.

I love this quote " If one has honey in a jar and keeps adding water to it, the honey is diluted; and soon there will be no honey left." That is the picture of our liturgy and the teachings of the clergy these days in more than 2/3rd of our parishes.

 

[elts1956]

If Judas were your bishop would you obey him out of obedience?

I have to say I do things that are outright disobedient to my bishop. He has made it known that he does not want anyone kneeling for communion during the Novus Ordo mass. However Rome has said that we have the right to receive communion as we wish. I kneel for communion with confidence.

I also criticize him publicly for acts such as helping to defeat pro-life legislation in my state.

I respect the office of the bishop but when he is wrong and working against the faith and morals of the Church he is simply a wolf in sheep’s clothing. I will not be obedient to a devil.

How about going to a Catholic Church where there are no pews and everyone stands during the Consecration? Unfortunately the Church was named for Pope John XXIII, poor guy. I bet he is shaking his head and mourning.

 

[MarkThompson]

How about going to a Catholic Church where there are no pews and everyone stands during the Consecration?

In any Eastern Catholic church, that’s what you’d generally expect.

 

[elts1956]

If Judas were your bishop would you obey him out of obedience?

I have to say I do things that are outright disobedient to my bishop. He has made it known that he does not want anyone kneeling for communion during the Novus Ordo mass. However Rome has said that we have the right to receive communion as we wish. I kneel for communion with confidence.

I also criticize him publicly for acts such as helping to defeat pro-life legislation in my state.

I respect the office of the bishop but when he is wrong and working against the faith and morals of the Church he is simply a wolf in sheep’s clothing. I will not be obedient to a devil.

The fact is after Vatican II there were no catechetical materials which reflected a changing Catholic understanding of mission and purpose. Yes, alot of the educational materials in the late 1960’s, 1970’s and reven the early 1980’s were not the best. It’s been a learning curve.

We realized how little value a question-answer catechesis was for really indoctrinating in the faith. If it was so good - how to explain how all those good Germans and Austrian Catholics who supported Hitler - despite a couple of encyclicals written during the late 1930’s and early 1940’s?

A Q & A approach to catechesis has some value - but it doesn’t lead to thoughtful and reflective adults which is one of the things the council was all about. And that’s where we’re moving now.

Has it been perfect? Umm…no…not at all. Just as the Baltimore Catechism approach was far from perfect.

Many of those Catholics who’ve fallen away were either raised with a Q & A approach and found it wanting or who were not well-catechized in the aftermath of the council simply because sufficient catechetical materials had not been developed.

John Paul II called for us to go deeper …not maintain some sort of superficial Catholicism which falls apart when someone is questioned more deeply.

I am one of those question and answer Catholics raised on the Baltimore Catechism and I think it is a very very good approach for young children. This approach gives a very solid, un thinking, un questioning foundation for children as a basis for belief. . The mind of the young child is very impressionable and the Church, I think, has lost a very good method of teaching a strong foundation of our Faith. Foundation first. Remember the old story about a house built on sand. However, my only quarrel with this type of approach is that as I grew older, ie. High School and beyond, there was no expansion of teaching the understanding to support these beliefs.

Since my formal education of many years ago, I have done quite a bit of reading and teaching myself regarding the Truths of the Church and that is the way I have grown in my Faith.

 

[elts1956]

How many of those that have entered the Church have even an average knowledge of what the Catholic Faith is, what it teaches and what it believes in?

From my experience and those of other catechists I’ve known people who go through the RCIA receive a very good foundation in Roman Catholicism. But as I always noted to the folks who went through the RCIA there’s always more to learn. As adults it’s up to them how far they wish to go…

More than that, has RCIA incresed the average Catholics understanding of the Faith?

The RCIA isn’t for “average Catholics”. It’s intended to shepherd those who are desirous of being baptized into RC as adults to learn more about the RC tradition or for those whose sacramental preparation isn’t complete.

The average Catholic has access to parish bible studies, conferences, workshops, reading materials and even formal theological study if he/she has the time. But some choose to remain uneducated or miseducated.

I’d also like to suggest that reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church does not mean one “knows” their faith. It’s like saying a person who takes one class on Aquinas “knows” Aquinas…

Based on what I have seen on these forums actual understanding of the faith and it’s teachings seems to be pretty well below average.

And that’s precisely why some people join CA to learn more. But CA doesn’t have all the answers either,nor does any one Catholic group…it’s a long, long, learning curve…

Perhaps the poster meant that when in doubt one basic reference is the Catholic Catechism.

 

[elts1956]

How many of those that have entered the Church have even an average knowledge of what the Catholic Faith is, what it teaches and what it believes in?

From my experience and those of other catechists I’ve known people who go through the RCIA receive a very good foundation in Roman Catholicism. But as I always noted to the folks who went through the RCIA there’s always more to learn. As adults it’s up to them how far they wish to go…

More than that, has RCIA incresed the average Catholics understanding of the Faith?

The RCIA isn’t for “average Catholics”. It’s intended to shepherd those who are desirous of being baptized into RC as adults to learn more about the RC tradition or for those whose sacramental preparation isn’t complete.

The average Catholic has access to parish bible studies, conferences, workshops, reading materials and even formal theological study if he/she has the time. But some choose to remain uneducated or miseducated.

I’d also like to suggest that reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church does not mean one “knows” their faith. It’s like saying a person who takes one class on Aquinas “knows” Aquinas…

Based on what I have seen on these forums actual understanding of the faith and it’s teachings seems to be pretty well below average.

And that’s precisely why some people join CA to learn more. But CA doesn’t have all the answers either,nor does any one Catholic group…it’s a long, long, learning curve…

In any Eastern Catholic church, that’s what you’d generally expect.

Pope John XXIII, Roman Catholic. If I had gone to an Eastern Catholic Church where standing during the Consecration is their ritual, I could accept that. But not in the Latin rite.

 

[Layman]

Well, the Credo, Our Father, Ten Commandments, Four Last Things, Seven Deadly Sins and Seven Heavenly Virtues are a good start.

Then, the Baltimore Catechism.

Not hard, really.

 

[markbrumbaugh]

Please rethink this. You’re saying that if a bishop does not have large seminary enrollment or the population demographics shift, then they are a bad bishop.

Catholics must respect their bishop regardless of how they perform.

Says who from what authority? Am I supposed then to move to another diocese where the bishop makes some sense?

I guess I can respect them, but I dont’ need to agree with them or Nancy Pelosi

 

[dcastlen50]

Is this tolerance, charity,compassion…or…greed! I just left Mount Auburn Hospitol in Brookline…you should see the palaces these Dr. have throughout this area…I paid $1600.00 to have a splinter removed from my daughter in the E.R…enough of the poor Drs starving in developed nations with national health care or long lines to get medical services …more lies to protect greedy people’s needs for yet a matching Lexus…we only offer the world what we ourselves practice…surrender to Christ or self but never both!

You’re lucky. I had a friend on a fishing vacation in Canada. He got a hook caught in his finger all the way to the bone. He waited in the emergency room close to 11 hours and no help was in sight. Eventually he went back to the U.S. for help.

It appears to me that the issue is not greed on the Dr.s part but covetness on your part. $1,600 may be a lot, but if you could have done it yourself; why not? Do not covet. The U.S. has had the best of a lot of things because of the free market.

By the way, look at the studies. What country gives the most per capita to charity? What country gives the most as a percent of income? What country helps the world the most? We are the most loving country in the world. I think one reason is because we have a free country - well, more free than other countries.

Take the log out of your eye, before you try to take the splinter out of the Dr.s eyes. They are a wonderful group of people dedicated to your health. We should pray for them.

 

[joe_clark]

I

“That hits the nail on the head so to speak. When I hear about people saying they are leaving the church or that the scandal has shaken their faith I have to wonder. How do the actions of a small group of men who betrayed their faith and oath change the truth promised 2K years ago? I’ve never quite understood that”.

).

I believe it is not just the actions of a small group of men who betrayed their faith and oath change the truth promised 2K years ago, but it is also the Men, the Priests, the Bishops, The cardinals…The hierchy that also betrayed their faith by staying silent when they knew better 20, 30, 40 50 years ago. It is also the church using law in criminal and civil courts to manuever around and nulify the truth, even if it be truth. Very very sad.

 

[dcastlen50]

I believe it is not just the actions of a small group of men who betrayed their faith and oath change the truth promised 2K years ago, but it is also the Men, the Priests, the Bishops, The cardinals…The hierchy that also betrayed their faith by staying silent when they knew better 20, 30, 40 50 years ago. It is also the church using law in criminal and civil courts to manuever around and nulify the truth, even if it be truth. Very very sad.

Some time ago, when I was a Baptist, I was in a two week HR seminar. Behind me sat a Risk Manager. He was in church RM. All his clients were protestants. I got to know him rather well as the seminar progressed. Once I said to him that I bet he was happy that he didn’t have a Catholic parish to work with. He responded that they have as much if not more problems than the Catholics. I also knew a very well known Methodist at the time who indicated that they, as well, have problems. If you have ever read Sam Miller’s response to the “priest” problem, you should. He is a jewish businessman in Clevelan who puts the church on a pedestal for its integrity.

Remember, clearly the bible says we are to and will have a lot of wolves in sheep’s clothing. We are all the church. It is horrible what has happened, but we are patients ina hospital not stars on a stage. Please don’t loose your love for this beautiful institution God gave us.

 

[joe_clark]

Some time ago, when I was a Baptist, I was in a two week HR seminar. Behind me sat a Risk Manager. He was in church RM. All his clients were protestants. I got to know him rather well as the seminar progressed. Once I said to him that I bet he was happy that he didn’t have a Catholic parish to work with. He responded that they have as much if not more problems than the Catholics. I also knew a very well known Methodist at the time who indicated that they, as well, have problems. If you have ever read Sam Miller’s response to the “priest” problem, you should. He is a jewish businessman in Clevelan who puts the church on a pedestal for its integrity.

Remember, clearly the bible says we are to and will have a lot of wolves in sheep’s clothing. We are all the church. It is horrible what has happened, but we are patients ina hospital not stars on a stage. Please don’t loose your love for this beautiful institution God gave us.

I agree, you stay and fight for what you love. That is why I say things sometimes people don’t want to hear, but it is because I don’t want the bleeding out to continue. BSn yourself and others, doesn’t get that done. So I continue to pray for guidance and strength, lots and lots of strength.

 

[dcastlen50]

I agree, you stay and fight for what you love. That is why I say things sometimes people don’t want to hear, but it is because I don’t want the bleeding out to continue. BSn yourself and others, doesn’t get that done. So I continue to pray for guidance and strength, lots and lots of strength.

Well taken. I am thinking of starting a “Conservative Catholic Club.” No Cafeteria Catholics need apply. I was just thinking of the idea, I had never mentioned it to anyone when one morning I was having breakfast with an Orthodox (Conservative) Catholic and he asked if I would be interested in heading up a club of Catholics that were conservative! Can you believe it? Oh well, I am reading church history and can not believe all the heresies and terrible thing that have gone on in the church; and here we are just as strong as ever.

God love you. dominus vobiscum