To All Who Believe That the Mind is Material

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AirLiner

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If you had an object and you knew the movements and positions of every particle in the object, how could you tell if it was conscious?

If you have an answer I’ll be very interested in it.

If you say its unknown then that would very strange for you just admitted that even if you knew the movements and positions of every particle in an object like the brain we still couldn’t explain consciousness. I mean what else is there to discover? So by picking this option, I assume you’re accepting the validity of New Mysterianism?
 
AirLiner said:
If you had an object and you knew the movements and positions of every particle in the object, how could you tell if it was conscious?
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Interesting question, although it’s certainly a leading question.

The part of the question that renders an error is that, in my opinion, I don’t see how knowing the movement and position of every particle could necessarily tell you much of anything about the object’s level of consciousness. They really have nothing to do with one another, unless I’m missing something obvious. If you want to discern the presence of consciousness of an “object”, then you’d need a different form of measurement.
If you have an answer I’ll be very interested in it.
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If you have a definition of “consciousness”, I’d be very interested in it. I would suggest that you should first put forth your definition of “consciousness”, so that others can then either agree or disagree with you.
I mean what else is there to discover?
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The locus of consciousness, for one. The nature of consciousness, for another. The source of consciousness, for a third. Whether consciousness is individuated, or unitary, for a fourth. And on… None of these things have been proven or quantified, yet.
So by picking this option, I assume you’re accepting the validity of New Mysterianism?
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Wow. Again, I don’t see how acceptance of your purely hypothetical and erroneous premise (that we know the movement and position…) implies that someone then automatically buys into “New Mysterianism.” There ARE other options and answers, ya know. Your question presumes an either/or that disallows other options.

But I guess you have a point to this question. Great. What is it?

~
 
Well basically I was trying to find out materialists’ perspectives on the relation between the brain and qualia. So that’s the part of consciousness I’m asking about, qualia. Basically if mind and matter are the same thing, then the movement of particles in the brain is producing qualia. The matter-qualia relation is what I’m inquiring about. Does that clear my post up?
 
Yes, thanks, that clears it up a bit.

I’m absolutely sure that there are many places on the web where you can do research into the materialist’s position on mind and consciousness. Considering that it’s not very likely that many people here are “materialists”, then what kind of answer might you expect to receive in this forum? Surely not a balanced one, right? (That’s just my guess.)

So, I guess I’m still confused on why you would ask such a question here, and not do the research into the materialist’s position, although I suspect you already know what that is.

We should now let the materialists take the floor to explain their perspective, I suppose. Are you asking any materialists who might be here to support and defend their position, or are you looking for information?
 
Yes, well you see I have an issue with materialism when it comes to the mind.

They claim that qualia is produced by matter moving in the brain, however they still can’t explain its existence. The hard problem of consciousness is still unsolved.

Now being materialists, they are merely waiting for more evidence. The brain is very complex and we still don’t know every single structure of it. My point is that even if we knew the position and movement of every single particle in it we still couldn’t explain consciousness.

Since in the materialist worldview there is nothing more than matter, this is a dead end. Once you know every movement and position of every particle in the brain what more can you learn about it? Nothing, yet the hard problem still remains. Some philosophers have already given up and said this is a dead end we can never explain consciousness. This is known as New Mysterianism.

However if the mind was material explaining it away should be only a matter of learning how brain particles move and interacts with each other. Matter interacting is what is occurring in every other phenomenon in the universe. But as I pointed out even if we knew every interaction of every particle in the brain we still couldn’t explain conscoiusness (qualia).

So my point is to try and show the absurdity of materialism and to support dualism. Any materialist here willing to support and defend their position?
 
If we abandon our preconceptions of reality there are three possibilities:
  1. Matter is ultimately derived from mind.
  2. Mind is ultimately derived from matter.
  3. Mind and matter have always co-existed.
Occam’s Razor rules out #3. The only fact we know directly is our own stream of consciousness, i.e. the activity of our mind. We infer from the evidence of our senses that there are other conscious minds and material objects. Since our primary datum is our mind the onus is on the materialist to explain how mind is derived from matter. We can doubt whether matter exists but we cannot doubt the fact that we are thinking - because doubt implies thought!

The success and achievements of science demonstrate the power of the mind over matter. So it is more reasonable to believe that matter is ultimately derived from mind.
 
AirLiner said:
…however they still can’t explain its existence. The hard problem of consciousness is still unsolved.
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My point is that even if we knew the position and movement of every single particle in it we still couldn’t explain consciousness.
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Nothing, yet the hard problem still remains.
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But as I pointed out even if we knew every interaction of every particle in the brain we still couldn’t explain conscoiusness (qualia).
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Well, there you have it, then. No one knows exactly how to explain consciousness, and the question remains.

If the problem is unsolved – if no one knows for sure what consciousness is and how it operates, or where it is located – then I’ll assume that you don’t know, either. Am I correct?

You may have a theory, or you may support “dualism”, but in the end, it is no more than a theory.

Let me expand on my previous question: “What’s the point of your question, especially considering that no one knows for sure, and it’s unlikely that you know any better than any of us?”

If the question is just so you can shoot the breeze about the topic – one that I find fascinating – then why not put forth your own theories instead of being so quick to knock down other theories that you don’t happen to agree with?
 
tonyrey said:
The success and achievements of science demonstrate the power of the mind over matter. So it is more reasonable to believe that matter is ultimately derived from mind.
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If someone knocks you hard on the head with a hammer or gives you some potent yet dead drugs, you will see how much power the matter has over the mind. The mind, a person’s character can be altered by physical changes to the brain. All that is strong indication that the mind actually consists of matter.
 
AnAtheist said:
If someone knocks you hard on the head with a hammer or gives you some potent yet dead drugs, you will see how much power the matter has over the mind. The mind, a person’s character can be altered by physical changes to the brain. All that is strong indication that the mind actually consists of matter.
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If you smash a guitar into smithereens does it demonstrate the guitarist no longer exists?
How do you know matter exists?

If the mind consists solely of matter then matter has somehow become aware that matter exists! Do you believe in miracles?!
 
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