To Be a Christian

[shoewindow3000]

To be a Christian

“They rejected the world’s entertainment, honors, and riches. They were already citizens of another kingdom, and they listened to the voice of a different Master.”

Letter to Diognetus:“They dwell in their own countries simply as travelers… They are in the flesh, but they do not live after the flesh. They pass their days on earth, but they are citizens of heaven. They obey the prescribed laws, and at the same time, they surpass the laws by their lives. They love all men but are persecuted by all. They are unknown and condemned. They are put to death, but [will be] restored to life. They are poor, yet they make many rich. They possess few things; yet, they abound in all. They are dishonored, but in their very dishonor are glorified… And those who hate them are unable to give any reason for their hatred.”

Justin Martyr:“Since our thoughts are not fixed on the present, we are not concerned when men put us to death. Death is a debt we must all pay anyway.”

Cyprian:“The one peaceful and trustworthy tranquility, the one security that is solid, firm, and never changing, is this: for a man to withdraw from the distractions of this world, anchor himself to the firm ground of salvation, and lift his eyes from earth to heaven… He who is actually greater than the world can crave nothing, can desire nothing, from this world. How stable, how unshakable is that safeguard, how heavenly is the protection in its never-ending blessings-to be free from the snares of this entangling world, to be purged from the dregs of earth, and fitted for the light of eternal immortality.”

Roman’s pagan remarks against the Christians:
*They despise the temples as houses of the dead. They reject the gods. They laugh at sacred things. Wretched, they pity our priests. Half-naked themselves, they despise honors and purple robes. What incredible audacity and foolishness! They are not afraid of present torments, but they fear those that are uncertain and future. While they do not fear to die for the present, they fear to die after death…

At least learn from your present situation, you wretched people, what actually awaits you after death. See, many of you-in fact, by your own admission, the majority of you-are in want, are cold, are hungry, and are laboring in hard work. Yet, your god allows it. He is either unwilling or unable to assist his people. So he is either weak or unjust… Take notice! For you there are threats, punishments, tortures, and crosses… Where is the god who is supposed to help you when you come back from the dead? He cannot even help you in this life! Do not the Romans, without any help from your god, govern, rule over, and have the enjoyment of the whole world, including dominion over you yourselves?

In the meantime, living in suspense and anxiety, you abstain from respectable pleasures. You do not attend sporting events. You have no interest in public amusements. You reject the public banquets, and abhor the sacred games… Thus, wretched as you are, you will neither rise from the dead, nor enjoy life in the meanwhile. So, if you have any wisdom or sense, stop prying into the heavens and the destinies and secrets of the world… Persons who are unable to understand civil matters are certainly unable to discuss divine ones.*

 

[AnAtheist]

Roman’s pagan remarks against the Christians:
…]

I like that text. Where is it from?

 

[tonyrey]

It is significant that the Roman empire disintegrated within a few centuries whereas Christianity has survived to this day…

 

[Eucharisted]

Related: tektonics.org/lp/nowayjose.html

 

[AnAtheist]

It is significant that the Roman empire disintegrated within a few centuries whereas Christianity has survived to this day…

Yes, but after Christianity took over. Perhaps it would have endured pagan style. Who knows?

 

[James_S_Saint]

Christianity could not have “taken over” if the Roman Empire had not already fallen.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Yes, but after Christianity took over. Perhaps it would have endured pagan style. Who knows?

the empire had been split and the west had begun to fail before Christianity became the dominant religion, it wasnt the government itself until it was the only organization left to hold things together. though there are no “pagan” cultures left of any import, maybe there is a reason for that? i would suggest that hedonists are weak, they live for something fleeting. when hard times come, the hedonists has no foundation, no strength. they are so much chaff in the wind. maybe thats why there are no significant pagan cultures left.

 

[Oreoracle]

…whereas Christianity has survived to this day…

Has it? Has it really?

Tell me: When’s the last time you’ve stoned an adulterer, or a homosexual? When’s the last time you’ve burned a witch, or even identified one? Your religion has changed, just like everything else. Just because it’s lived with the same name doesn’t mean it’s the same ideology.

 

[AnAtheist]

the empire had been split and the west had begun to fail before Christianity became the dominant religion,

The empire split in 405, Christianity became state religion in 380. The Eastern Empire officially lasted until 1204 when it was invaded by crusaders.

the hedonists has no foundation, no strength. they are so much chaff in the wind. maybe thats why there are no significant pagan cultures left.

No significant pagan cultures have survived because Christians were very thorough in killing each and every pagan who would not convert.

 

[tonyrey]

Has it? Has it really?
Tell me: When’s the last time you’ve stoned an adulterer, or a homosexual? When’s the last time you’ve burned a witch, or even identified one? Your religion has changed, just like everything else. Just because it’s lived with the same name doesn’t mean it’s the same ideology.

Your knowledge of history and Christian teaching is obviously defective. You would be better advised to refrain from rabid outbursts and produce a rational argument supported by precise facts and details. You are merely exhibiting your immaturity for all to see…

 

[tonyrey]

Yes, but after Christianity took over. Perhaps it would have endured pagan style. Who knows?

It is well documented by historians that empires are destroyed from within by moral corruption and decadence…

 

[AnAtheist]

Yes, but after

That does not necessarily contradict each other.

 

[Jordan9]

Neat post! As a history student, I cannot get enough of reading primary sources!

Thanks!

 

[Oreoracle]

Your knowledge of history and Christian teaching is obviously defective. You would be better advised to refrain from rabid outbursts and produce a rational argument supported by precise facts and details. You are merely exhibiting your immaturity for all to see…

Have you ever heard the term “common knowledge?” Christians were murderers back in the good ol’ days. Everyone knows this. The fact that you would ask me to produce evidence of something you were taught in middle school shows how stubborn you are. Your. Fellows. Killed. Others. For. No. Reason. Get used to it.

 

[shoewindow3000]

Has it? Has it really?

Tell me: When’s the last time you’ve stoned an adulterer, or a homosexual? When’s the last time you’ve burned a witch, or even identified one? Your religion has changed, just like everything else. Just because it’s lived with the same name doesn’t mean it’s the same ideology.

Are you serious? A true Christian would NEVER stone somebody.

As a matter of fact, Christ condemned it. When the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery to Jesus, they asked Him what they should do. (According to the law, she must be stoned.)

If I remember correctly, Jesus said, “Whoever is without sin, let him throw the first stone.”
Everybody left, one by one, and when it was only Him and the woman He said, “Neither do I condemn you.”​

There* have* been many people in the Church in the past who have claimed to be Christians while doing horrible things to people, and that is inexcusable. But Christ NEVER taught us to do such things, and you know it.

You post was just a cheap shot.

 

[shoewindow3000]

Have you ever heard the term “common knowledge?” Christians were murderers back in the good ol’ days. Everyone knows this. The fact that you would ask me to produce evidence of something you were taught in middle school shows how stubborn you are. Your. Fellows. Killed. Others. For. No. Reason. Get used to it.

Hmm…I don’t recall St. Augustine ever cracking someone’s head open with a stone, or St. Thomas Aquinas taking a sword and chopping somebody’s head off.

Oh, maybe it was the early Christian Polycarp, who* himself* was stabbed and burned to death?​

Hey wait a second…

…wasn’t it** non-believers** who killed them?

Aren’t you a nonbeliever? Would you kill me, too, if you had the chance?

 

[Oreoracle]

You post was just a cheap shot.

Actually, my post was in accordance with Leviticus. Ya know, that book that has forty or so verses but Christians have conveniently dropped all but the two condemning homosexuality (but death is no longer the punishment)? Why do you think they discarded those rules? Don’t be fooled, though; they didn’t do so immediately. There was plenty of mindless bloodshed before that happened, mostly caused by the Christians who were just obeying the Christian creed of the age. How innocent they were!

 

[James_S_Saint]

Actually, my post was in accordance with Leviticus.
.
.
.
There was plenty of mindless bloodshed before that happened, mostly caused by the Christians who were just obeying the Christian creed of the age. How innocent they were!

Are you proposing that “to be a Christian” means “to be an errant Christian” as though if any error has been made, then no Christian has ever been true to the real cause?

You have been taught of their errors. Have you been equally taught of their virtues and accomplishments? I strongly suspect not.

Have you been taught so equally of the number and types of maliciousness that have been generated by non-Christians? Are you aware that the Crusades were actually inspired by government (non-Christian) politics over territory rights?

Is your conception of “what would have been” truly a balance of the reality of life if there had been no effort now named Christianity? Or are you really choosing sides before all of the real evidence has been presented (presuming)?

 

[Oreoracle]

Are you proposing that “to be a Christian” means “to be an errant Christian” as though if any error has been made, then no Christian has ever been true to the real cause?

You have been taught of their errors. Have you been equally taught of their virtues and accomplishments? I strongly suspect not.

Have you been taught so equally of the number and types of maliciousness that have been generated by non-Christians? Are you aware that the Crusades were actually inspired by government (non-Christian) politics over territory rights?

Is your conception of “what would have been” truly a balance of the reality of life if there had been no effort now named Christianity? Or are you really choosing sides before all of the real evidence has been presented (presuming)?

You have quite the imagination. I haven’t made any of the assumptions you’ve mentioned. This began when I pointed out to Tony that Church doctrine (what is seen as acceptable by Church officials) has changed over time. The Church executed the Inquisition! Now, the Church confesses that the Inquisition was wrong, and that they shouldn’t have executed it. See how things change?

In short, any person who suggests that ‘the one true apostolic Catholic Church’ (quite the epithet) has “never changed” is lying. Of course it has changed. Do you deny that it has changed?

 

[liquidpele]

Are you serious? A true Christian would NEVER stone somebody.

As a matter of fact, Christ condemned it. When the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery to Jesus, they asked Him what they should do. (According to the law, she must be stoned.)

If I remember correctly, Jesus said, “Whoever is without sin, let him throw the first stone.”
Everybody left, one by one, and when it was only Him and the woman He said, “Neither do I condemn you.”​

There* have* been many people in the Church in the past who have claimed to be Christians while doing horrible things to people, and that is inexcusable. But Christ NEVER taught us to do such things, and you know it.

You post was just a cheap shot.

First off: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
And yes, I know the guy who came up with it is a Christian now. It’s still a valid fallacy.

Second, Jesus was a great guy. He was a reformer, he challenged the status quo, treated a prostitute as an equal, etc. You might even say he was liberal I just wish more Christians were actually like him beyond just when it’s easy or convenient.