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ProVobis
Guest
OTOH, there are non-Catholics who disapprove of abortion, etc. Doesn’t make them Catholic either.
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A
AmericanFighter
Guest
For those of you that say you have to agree with everything where is the line? I agree to the point that I want to be a priest and serve the liars as a priest in the church but I certainly don’t agree with the pope on everything. I don’t agree with his stances on gun control I don’t 100% agree with him on global warming and although I support helping the poor I am a huge opponent of the communist system.
So does that mean I can’t be catholic because:
I own a gun
Disagree on global warming
am a capitalist
I think human beings can disagree.
So does that mean I can’t be catholic because:
I own a gun
Disagree on global warming
am a capitalist
I think human beings can disagree.
E
e_c
Guest
Yes, one is still “ontologically and legally” Catholic but is not in practice a Catholic, which is what I assume the OP means in his question. I don’t think canon law or the intricacies of the sacramental economy are on his mind. In plain speak, to be a Catholic, one must habitually believe what the Church teaches (and follow the precepts). This is how it has been treated in the writings of the Fathers and Doctors…
It is not advantageous on the day of judgment to have been received fully into the Church sacramentally (“ontologically and legally”) while believing against the Faith (in practice).
It is not advantageous on the day of judgment to have been received fully into the Church sacramentally (“ontologically and legally”) while believing against the Faith (in practice).
H
HelenRose
Guest
I think it would help in trying to sort this out if we all take time to study the Catechism of the Catholic Church. There are many things that are open for disagreement. But those that are not open for disagreement are plainly stated in the Catechism. The Catechism does not mention global warming, capitalism, socialism, guns etc. Those are things that come under individual or society judgement. We can disagree on how best to serve the poor. Some say capitalism is a better system to eradicate poverty. Others say socialism.For those of you that say you have to agree with everything where is the line? I agree to the point that I want to be a priest and serve the liars as a priest in the church but I certainly don’t agree with the pope on everything. I don’t agree with his stances on gun control I don’t 100% agree with him on global warming and although I support helping the poor I am a huge opponent of the communist system.
So does that mean I can’t be catholic because:
I own a gun
Disagree on global warming
am a capitalist
I think human beings can disagree.
We can disagree on how best to use our resources and protect our environment.
We can disagree on how best to protect society. Is it safer for citizens to be armed and trained in protecting themselves? Or is it safer to have the government only possess weapons?
Individual priests can have their own ideas on these subjects and so can we. We are called to respect and listen to each other in trying to find the best ways to serve God and humanity.
A
Abu
Guest
Yes, but any Catholic who refuses to assent to any dogma or doctrine is not a real Catholic.AmericanFighter #25
I think human beings can disagree.
As we have seen (post #22) he is not a real Catholic, who assents to all dogma and doctrine, and repents of sin through confession and penance. A real Catholic is bound to try to live according to the teaching of the Church NOT to set themselves up as a cafeteria Catholic, picking and choosing.(name removed by moderator) #27
He hired a “surrogate” and through IVF had twins, a son and a daughter. He knew that the church would consider that a sin. He did it anyway
He refuses to believe that they could be the product of anything evil. (a disagreement with clear Church teaching).
To me, the answers are clear and obvious and not subject to dispute. He is Catholic.definitely.
Can. 229 §1. Lay persons are bound by the obligation and possess the right to acquire knowledge of Christian doctrine appropriate to the capacity and condition of each in order for them to be able to live according to this doctrine, announce it themselves, defend it if necessary, and take their part in exercising the apostolate.
vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__PV.HTM
The three levels of teaching from Ad Tuendam Fidem are:
**1) Dogma – infallible (Canon #750.1) **to be believed with the assent of divine and Catholic faith.
2) Doctrine – infallible (Canon #750.2) requires the assent of ecclesial faith, to be “firmly embraced and held”.
3) Doctrine – non-definitive (non-infallible) and requires intellectual assent (“loyal submission of the will and intellect”, Vatican II, *Lumen Gentium 25), not an assent of faith. See the Explanatory Note on ATF by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith at ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFADTU.HTM
Let us not prevaricate and mislead others to feel that they can act as they choose and be faithful to Christ.
A
Abu
Guest
**Can. 205 **Those baptized are fully in the communion of the Catholic Church on this earth who are joined with Christ in its visible structure by the bonds of the profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical governance.(name removed by moderator) #30
Please provide authority from the church defining a “real Catholic”.
Can. 212 §1. Conscious of their own responsibility, **the Christian faithful are bound to follow with Christian obedience those things which the sacred pastors, inasmuch as they represent Christ, declare as teachers of the faith **or establish as rulers of the Church.
False. The difference is precisely that the real (faithful) Catholic sinner repents of his/her sin, confesses, does penance, and resolves to avoid sinning again.you are simply in error if you mean that he is somehow not as Catholic as any other sinner who is a member of the OHCA Church.
Where has this been demonstrated by your sinner?
E
e_c
Guest
Here’s that supposedly “non sequitur” spectrum again:
Suspicion, doubt, heresy, schism, apostasy.
The line between Catholic and non-Catholic, I asserted lies inside that third one, heresy. The question of culpability looms large. Refer to my earlier post. Certainly, someone who is fully culpable for a heresy is not a Catholic in the practical sense of the word, since the entire spiritual edifice has been destroyed. In the average case, like the one you gave, it is hard to tell. Sufficient culpability is not necessarily full culpability. If one’s sin of heresy is mortal, then no, one would not be a Catholic. If it is venial, due to any number of factors, then one would be a Catholic.
I was being lighter than Cardinal Newman. He puts the line in the sin of doubt (Grammar of Assent). One might be able to make the case that any mortal sin against faith is enough to render someone “not a Catholic.” For now, I will “doubt,” meaning not hold either to be true, but after a little reflection I would say I lean towards that same attitude of Newman. If the whole spiritual edifice is gone, which is what a break from faith does, then how can one be part of a spiritual family other than in law and in the sacramental characters? Maybe I was born in America and am a citizen for that reason, but if I was raised in China, know only Chinese and hate baseball, mom, and apple pie, how American am I?
This is a really worn out debate. It comes up all the time. Let’s make our distinctions and get on with the work we have to do. With the advent of “cultural Catholicism” the world at large no longer has clarity on what it actually means to be in the Church, which is very spiritually dangerous since it leads to mediocrity and allows people to dwell in their sins thinking they’re just fine and dandy thank you. Go to Ireland, you will find people who swear by their Catholicism but disdain everything to do with the Church, because, “We Irish are Catholic, and those fekkin Prots in the North and all these fekkin Muzzies can bug off!” It’s an ethnicity.
Except it’s not.
Faith requires grace. Let’s beg our Divine Redeemer for more of that grace without which none of us can hope for salvation.
Suspicion, doubt, heresy, schism, apostasy.
The line between Catholic and non-Catholic, I asserted lies inside that third one, heresy. The question of culpability looms large. Refer to my earlier post. Certainly, someone who is fully culpable for a heresy is not a Catholic in the practical sense of the word, since the entire spiritual edifice has been destroyed. In the average case, like the one you gave, it is hard to tell. Sufficient culpability is not necessarily full culpability. If one’s sin of heresy is mortal, then no, one would not be a Catholic. If it is venial, due to any number of factors, then one would be a Catholic.
I was being lighter than Cardinal Newman. He puts the line in the sin of doubt (Grammar of Assent). One might be able to make the case that any mortal sin against faith is enough to render someone “not a Catholic.” For now, I will “doubt,” meaning not hold either to be true, but after a little reflection I would say I lean towards that same attitude of Newman. If the whole spiritual edifice is gone, which is what a break from faith does, then how can one be part of a spiritual family other than in law and in the sacramental characters? Maybe I was born in America and am a citizen for that reason, but if I was raised in China, know only Chinese and hate baseball, mom, and apple pie, how American am I?
This is a really worn out debate. It comes up all the time. Let’s make our distinctions and get on with the work we have to do. With the advent of “cultural Catholicism” the world at large no longer has clarity on what it actually means to be in the Church, which is very spiritually dangerous since it leads to mediocrity and allows people to dwell in their sins thinking they’re just fine and dandy thank you. Go to Ireland, you will find people who swear by their Catholicism but disdain everything to do with the Church, because, “We Irish are Catholic, and those fekkin Prots in the North and all these fekkin Muzzies can bug off!” It’s an ethnicity.
Except it’s not.
Faith requires grace. Let’s beg our Divine Redeemer for more of that grace without which none of us can hope for salvation.
A
Abu
Guest
The real, true, genuine Catholic professes the faith and confesses serious sins.
To your *(a disagreement with clear Church teaching) *Jesus warned dissenters: “if he refuses to hear even the Church let him be like the heathen and a publican.” (Mt 18:17).
The selfist attitude demotes the Christ.
We can’t judge according to truth by being mesmerized by others and giving them adulation, but according to the teaching of Christ’s Church, Her Tradition and Her Scriptures. It is very important not to judge a person’s guilt before God as commanded (Mt 7:1-5). We are commanded not to judge others regarding their motives, intentions, and guilt before God (a judgment reserved to God).
But it is vital to follow the command to judge all actions, speech, writing against truth and in this way we can help others by offering truth. Christ and His Church’s Scriptures tell us:
“Stop judging by appearances, but judge justly.” (Jn 7:24).
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them” (Mt 7:15, 16).
“Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them.” (Mt 7:19-20).
“Test everything: retain what is good.” (1Thess 5:21).
“The spiritual person, however, can judge everything but is not subject to judgement by anyone.” (1 Cor 2:15).
“I, for my part, although absent in body but present in spirit, have already, as if present, pronounced judgement on the one who has committed this deed…” (1 Cor 5:3; read 1-13).
“I am speaking as to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I am saying.” (1 Cor 10:15).
“Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” (1 Jn 4:1).
“I know your works; I know that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either cold or hot. So, because you are lukewarm, neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of my mouth.” (Rev 3:16).
The correction should be with the intention of helping others to see right from wrong and truth from falsehood and so assisting in the path to virtue.
To slander virtually all Catholics in your country as not willing to repent and confess to serious sin seems to indicate a grave myopia.(name removed by moderator) #32
it is not up to me to demonstrate to you that my friend repented. What I know is that he is working on it. That is more than probably 99.9% of the Catholics in this country.
To your *(a disagreement with clear Church teaching) *Jesus warned dissenters: “if he refuses to hear even the Church let him be like the heathen and a publican.” (Mt 18:17).
The selfist attitude demotes the Christ.
We can’t judge according to truth by being mesmerized by others and giving them adulation, but according to the teaching of Christ’s Church, Her Tradition and Her Scriptures. It is very important not to judge a person’s guilt before God as commanded (Mt 7:1-5). We are commanded not to judge others regarding their motives, intentions, and guilt before God (a judgment reserved to God).
But it is vital to follow the command to judge all actions, speech, writing against truth and in this way we can help others by offering truth. Christ and His Church’s Scriptures tell us:
“Stop judging by appearances, but judge justly.” (Jn 7:24).
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them” (Mt 7:15, 16).
“Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them.” (Mt 7:19-20).
“Test everything: retain what is good.” (1Thess 5:21).
“The spiritual person, however, can judge everything but is not subject to judgement by anyone.” (1 Cor 2:15).
“I, for my part, although absent in body but present in spirit, have already, as if present, pronounced judgement on the one who has committed this deed…” (1 Cor 5:3; read 1-13).
“I am speaking as to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I am saying.” (1 Cor 10:15).
“Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” (1 Jn 4:1).
“I know your works; I know that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either cold or hot. So, because you are lukewarm, neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of my mouth.” (Rev 3:16).
The correction should be with the intention of helping others to see right from wrong and truth from falsehood and so assisting in the path to virtue.
J
johnnyc176
Guest
And that’s okay. The Pope is not declaring things like ‘gun control’ or ‘climate change’ as teachings of Jesus. It may be of his opinion that these issue would help in the broader context of specific teachings. We can disagree with opinion.I don’t agree with his stances on gun control I don’t 100% agree with him on global warming and although I support helping the poor I am a huge opponent of the communist system.
However it does seem like these issues are becoming invented teachings of Jesus by liberals to further justify voting for liberal politicians that support agendas that do go against the teachings of Jesus.
Gun control is just politics. Thou shall not murder is the teaching of Jesus. The gun is a tool that can be used for evil purposes just as the scalpel and forceps are tools that can be used for evil purposes. What needs to be addressed is the why, and not the how of evil actions. One of the biggest whys being that if we are not respectful of life at it’s conception than we should not be surprised when there is no concern for life at other stages whether it’s a gun, redefining marriage or pulling a plug.
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