To die/preach?

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I know any good Christian (much less Catholic) should scorn the book and movie The Last Temptation of Christ, but I was amazed when I first saw the film! As blasphemous and heretical as the movie is, I personally see a lot of value in its message: what if Jesus decided not to be crucified? I think the book/movie address rather plainly that Jesus came to die but it also lets the audience become aware of the fact that even Jesus was granted a portion of free will. This is why the agony in the Garden is one of the most heartwrenching scenes of the whole Passion: because here we see Jesus confronted with his humanity. It’s a difficult plot to digest, especially when Judas is actually the noblest of all characters, but (again) we see that there was, at the very least, a divine plan which needed to be carried out for a purpose. How this divine plan was executed, though, is all in the details - and these details are the products of free will. So, while God *will not *say “Judas will be the betrayer” (so as not to condemn Judas by fate), God *can *say, “Judas will be the betrayer” because God is omniscient.
 
Wow,

When I logged on this morning I was reading this thread and just this morning while I was walking I had been listening to two of Bishop Fulton Sheens lectures…in one of them “The Mass” he specifically mentions this main purpose of Christ…“He came to die”…

If you get a chance, listen to the track, “The Mass”…It gives a really good presentation about this !!! 🙂
 
ValiantDomain said:
I know any good Christian (much less Catholic) should scorn the book and movie The Last Temptation of Christ, but I was amazed when I first saw the film! As blasphemous and heretical as the movie is, I personally see a lot of value in its message: what if Jesus decided not to be crucified? I think the book/movie address rather plainly that Jesus came to die but it also lets the audience become aware of the fact that even Jesus was granted a portion of free will. This is why the agony in the Garden is one of the most heartwrenching scenes of the whole Passion: because here we see Jesus confronted with his humanity. It’s a difficult plot to digest, especially when Judas is actually the noblest of all characters, but (again) we see that there was, at the very least, a divine plan which needed to be carried out for a purpose. How this divine plan was executed, though, is all in the details - and these details are the products of free will. **So, while God *will not ***say “Judas will be the betrayer” (so as not to condemn Judas by fate), God *can *say, “Judas will be the betrayer” because God is omniscient.
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i didn’t understand the boldened part…it’s this part am asking about but am afraid your answer confused me. Did God make Judas betray Jesus or did God know it and allowed it hence turning a wicked deed into something good? what’s your opinion?
 
KnightforChrist said:
Wow,

When I logged on this morning I was reading this thread and just this morning while I was walking I had been listening to two of Bishop Fulton Sheens lectures…in one of them “The Mass” he specifically mentions this main purpose of Christ…“He came to die”…

If you get a chance, listen to the track, “The Mass”…It gives a really good presentation about this !!! 🙂
Click to expand...
where can i listen to them? can i using the internet? because i don’t live in USA.
 
inJESUS said:
i didn’t understand the boldened part…it’s this part am asking about but am afraid your answer confused me. Did God make Judas betray Jesus or did God know it and allowed it hence turning a wicked deed into something good? what’s your opinion?
Click to expand...
If it can be agreed upon that God is omniscient, or all-knowing, then there’s no area of which God is unknowing - especially concerning the fate of mankind (as a whole) or of a man (as an individual). This is what has led many down the road of sole reliance upon predestination thereby forsaking our gift of free will. From this standpoint, it may be asked reasonably, if Jesus foresees Judas’ betrayal, does Judas have no free will and can he not avoid betraying Jesus? However, there is a critical difference between ‘foreknowledge’ and ‘predestination.’ For instance, it was known (prior to the event) Judas would betray Jesus through the exercise of free will but Judas was never explicitly consigned to betray Jesus. At the Last Supper, Jesus does not say, “Judas will dip his hand into this bowl with me” (in fact, I’m sure Christ, in his compassion, was sincerely hoping otherwise!); instead, even after hearing that Jesus’ betrayer would dip his hand into the same bowl, Judas, of his own free will, admits himself guilty. Why? Because free will is at work, not just on the part of Judas, but all the apostles, and even demons and other beings instrumental in the life of Jesus which are nonetheless damned. And God had foreknowledge of all of this for He is omniscient.
 
inJESUS said:
i didn’t understand the boldened part…it’s this part am asking about but am afraid your answer confused me. Did God make Judas betray Jesus or did God know it and allowed it hence turning a wicked deed into something good? what’s your opinion?
Click to expand...
If it can be agreed upon that God is omniscient, or all-knowing, then there’s no area of which God is unknowing - especially concerning the fate of mankind (as a whole) or of a man (as an individual). This is what has led many down the road of sole reliance upon predestination thereby forsaking our gift of free will. From this standpoint, it may be asked reasonably, if Jesus foresees Judas’ betrayal, does Judas have no free will and can he not avoid betraying Jesus? However, there is a critical difference between ‘foreknowledge’ and ‘predestination.’ For instance, it was known (prior to the event) Judas would betray Jesus through the exercise of free will but Judas was never explicitly consigned to betray Jesus. At the Last Supper, Jesus does not say, “Judas will dip his hand into this bowl with me” (in fact, I’m sure Christ, in his compassion, was sincerely hoping otherwise!); instead, even after hearing that Jesus’ betrayer would dip his hand into the same bowl, Judas, of his own free will, admits himself guilty. Why? Because free will is at work, not just on the part of Judas, but all the apostles, and even demons and other beings instrumental in the life of Jesus which are nonetheless damned. And God had foreknowledge of all of this for He is omniscient.
 
inJESUS said:
i didn’t understand the boldened part…it’s this part am asking about but am afraid your answer confused me. Did God make Judas betray Jesus or did God know it and allowed it hence turning a wicked deed into something good? what’s your opinion?
Click to expand...
If it can be agreed upon that God is omniscient, or all-knowing, then there’s no area of which God is unknowing - especially concerning the fate of mankind (as a whole) or of a man (as an individual). This is what has led many down the road of sole reliance upon predestination thereby forsaking our gift of free will. From this standpoint, it may be asked reasonably, if Jesus foresees Judas’ betrayal, does Judas have no free will and can he not avoid betraying Jesus? However, there is a critical difference between ‘foreknowledge’ and ‘predestination.’ For instance, it was known (prior to the event) Judas would betray Jesus through the exercise of free will but Judas was never explicitly consigned to betray Jesus. At the Last Supper, Jesus does not say, “Judas will dip his hand into this bowl with me” (in fact, I’m sure Christ, in his compassion, was sincerely hoping otherwise!); instead, even after hearing that Jesus’ betrayer would dip his hand into the same bowl, Judas, of his own free will, admits himself guilty. Why? Because free will is at work, not just on the part of Judas, but all the apostles, and even demons and other beings instrumental in the life of Jesus which are nonetheless damned. And God had foreknowledge of all of this for He is omniscient.
 
ValiantDomain said:
If it can be agreed upon that God is omniscient, or all-knowing, then there’s no area of which God is unknowing - especially concerning the fate of mankind (as a whole) or of a man (as an individual). This is what has led many down the road of sole reliance upon predestination thereby forsaking our gift of free will. From this standpoint, it may be asked reasonably, if Jesus foresees Judas’ betrayal, does Judas have no free will and can he not avoid betraying Jesus? However, there is a critical difference between ‘foreknowledge’ and ‘predestination.’ For instance, it was known (prior to the event) Judas would betray Jesus through the exercise of free will but Judas was never explicitly consigned to betray Jesus. At the Last Supper, Jesus does not say, “Judas will dip his hand into this bowl with me” (in fact, I’m sure Christ, in his compassion, was sincerely hoping otherwise!); instead, even after hearing that Jesus’ betrayer would dip his hand into the same bowl, Judas, of his own free will, admits himself guilty. Why? Because free will is at work, not just on the part of Judas, but all the apostles, and even demons and other beings instrumental in the life of Jesus which are nonetheless damned. And God had foreknowledge of all of this for He is omniscient.
Click to expand...
if everything happened because of free-will, then Jesus did not come to die otherwise there wouldn’t be room for free-will. If Jesus came to die = predestination. If Jesus knew it and accepted it as part of people’s free will, then Jesus did not come to die thou he accepted it. That’s how i see it.
 
One must always keep in mind that God is outside of time. He does not experience it the way we do. For him one moment does not fall after the other. For him it is always now.

Therefore it is not accurate to say that he knows what people will do in the future. It is more accurate to say he sees all at once what people are doing throughout this thing we call time. This does not have any effect on Free Will. Before Jesus came down to take up his earthly existence he would have experienced the same view of the world.

It is also good to keep in mind that even though humanity has Free Will, we still manage to be insanely predictable.
 
In reviewing this thread you can see it as an allegory for the Mass…

When we go to Mass is it for the Liturgy of the Word = To hear the Word of God? Or do we go for the Liturgy of the Eucharist = To participate in the sacrifice of the Word of God?

No, we go for both- for the fullness of the Word. One without the other is incomplete.

He came as the Great Teacher and as the High Priest offering his whole person to the Father. One without the other is incomplete.
 
inJESUS said:
if everything happened because of free-will, then Jesus did not come to die otherwise there wouldn’t be room for free-will. If Jesus came to die = predestination. If Jesus knew it and accepted it as part of people’s free will, then Jesus did not come to die thou he accepted it. That’s how i see it.
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Your reason does not follow.

Jesus could have chosen from all eternity to die on the Cross because He knew what was going to happen. Knowing is different than directly causing.

This is always a difficult thing for people to grasp but simply put if God knows something it does not mean that He is causing it to happen directly. Now, He participates in all choices but instead of directly causing it He allows things that He does not like because He respects our free will. But at the same time from His perspective He already knows what we are going to choose. But again He does not make us choose it but rather he allows us to chose that which He knows we will choose.

I don’t know if you are able to see how, in a brief way, this both holds together freedom and God’s Will.
 
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