to enforce faith and short answer to atheists

[mhmtas]

SOME EVİDENCES FOR PRESENCE OF THE GOD

All substances came in to being about 15-20 billion years ago(Acknuwledged by Big Bang Theory, Entropy theory and others demonstrations). That means everything has a beginning. Than everything needs a decision and creative force to come into being. Because substance is not eternal.

By sending prophets with holy-writs( The Torah, Bible, Quran etc) and miracles God declares his presence. İn different locations and times prophets claim same subjects: There are endless life to come after temporal life, Day of Reckoning , heaven, hell etc. And millions of good and clever people confirm that intelligences by moral discovery and sensation. İf reports of prophet were fanciful and error million of peoples wouldn’t follow prophet candidly.

For beginning of life on the earth there are several theories and one of these is evolution theory by Charles DARWİN. Evolutionist claim that life occur by chances and healtful mutations. This argument is incorrect. There are thousands impossibilities and contraries of evolution. Charles Darwin himself confesses that to demonstrate evolution there were be countless forms of alive structures of transition forms. But ten thousands aged fossiles are same as present time. And he can’t expound afflatus(sensation) of animals because these geniuses shouldn’t be descendible.

İmpossiblities of evolution: A live cell consist of organelles and indeed fundamentally every alive structure consist of nitrogen, oxygen, carbon,hydrogen and more as like as elements. structure of a cell is like a building but cell is orderlier and more excelent. May like nitrogen, oxygen element s combine by themselves or by chance? Do these elements have brain, sight, cognizance etc? The element which develop DNA and RNA molecules do not have brain. These molecules can’t do anything by conscious. Countless elements for conjoining by chance to compose and develop a microscopic structure just like an aminoacid as arithmetical possibility is zero. While the smallest structures can’t be formed by chance, how very complex structure like human body can be formed by chance?

Every cell come into being by an existent cell. From scratch being formed by elements by chance do not happen on the earth and is impossible. Do any one see being formed from scratch by chance? İnitially God creat all genus and alives pullulate from existent alives.

There is life on the earth. Very complexing bodies of alives can’t be formed by chance,we see that. Than it can be thought that life is consisting of Sun energy stored in ATP molecules, gravity force, electrical force, atomic energy, elements, water and like others factors. Beware of that! None of these factors have brain and conscious and none of factors have got a life. These factors can’t build bodies of alives because structure of lives are so complex and excelent that even couldn’t be made by highest technology. Mankind can’t build these structure by fixing on element atoms one by one. While Human as a cleverest factor couldn’t get anything how mindless factors can do?

The energy of sun has not life and can’t animate anything. İf sun energy could vitalize than by getting blood circulation of a dead by a machine must generate life but it is so obvious that none of dead come to life again. Because source of life is not from the earth and inanimate factors. The source of life is spirit(soul) and creator of spirit is only God. Like life all moral senses( seeing, hearing, thinking, loving, feeling, etc) are functions and features of soul. The computer is a electronical machine and is operated by electrical energy.
A computer can solve very difficult problems that mankind can’t do. But computer by itself couldn’t decide anything to do. To start it need a conscious factor(Humanbeing that has a soul). Computer can’t think, worry, feel happy, etc. Electrical energy is one sort of energy just like sun energy.

Whole structures and bodies of alives are smart, florid, artly, functional, orderly. All right what and which factor make alives bodies so excelent? İs gravity force a expert, artist, intelligent prodigy? Or do elements and atoms have artistic understanding, comprehension? To recite facts appearing of factor actions actually are impact and action of God. God is excelent and his actions and products are excelent too.

To do so excelent action by themselves factor must have world even cosmos vastly brain, eyes, mystery,justice, measuring etc. Because an electron, atom and whole factors do their job perfectly. Very well which factor have these features? Sun reflects in clear things with its form, heat and colors like mirrors. İf someone refuse to accept the sun in the sky he must accept a moral and very secret sun in the every clear thing. İsn’t that an absurd idea? Actually like this if someone refuse God than he must accept that whole factors have features of a God. To reject one God but accepting countless God! How an unfortunate way!

 

[Steinway]

Thanks for the very interesting arguments, mulling them over. You may find some of these from a Catholic site helpful also:

ArguingWithAtheists.com/Pages/Intelligent_Design.htm

 

[Steinway]

All substances came in to being about 15-20 billion years ago(Acknuwledged by Big Bang Theory, Entropy theory and others demonstrations). That means everything has a beginning. Than everything needs a decision and creative force to come into being. Because substance is not eternal.

I’ve seen two of these before:

The Bible states God created everything from nothing, and the Big Bang theory (that survived 80 years so far), states that everything exploded into being from nothing. The proof of God being that nothing cannot create something.
The Causation argument, a three step argument. First, the Universe came into being from nothing. Second, everything has a cause. Third, therefore the Universe had a cause.

 

[SamH]

I’ve seen two of these before:

The Bible states God created everything from nothing, and the Big Bang theory (that survived 80 years so far), states that everything exploded into being from nothing. The proof of God being that nothing cannot create something.
The Causation argument, a three step argument. First, the Universe came into being from nothing. Second, everything has a cause. Third, therefore the Universe had a cause.

The origin of life is another sign of creation. 50 years ago scientist thought they could create simple single celled life - it was just a matter of time. They have since learned that even the most basic single celled organisms are massively more complex than they believed and the more they learn the more they know they don’t know. The “spontaneous” natural generation of life from warm mud is looking more and more doubtful.

foxnews.com/scitech/2010/05/20/scientists-announce-produce-living-cell-using-manmade-dna/

 

[Steinway]

The origin of life is another sign of creation. 50 years ago scientist thought they could create simple single celled life - it was just a matter of time. They have since learned that even the most basic single celled organisms are massively more complex than they believed and the more they learn the more they know they don’t know. The “spontaneous” natural generation of life from warm mud is looking more and more doubtful.

foxnews.com/scitech/2010/05/20/scientists-announce-produce-living-cell-using-manmade-dna/

Thank you for the link. Great stuff.

 

[DarkStarTheta]

EVİDENCES FOR PRESENCE OF THE GOD

Oh?

All substances came in to being about 15-20 billion years ago

13.77 ± 0.059 billion years (with a 95% confidence interval)

That means everything has a beginning.

No, it means everything in our universe was, at a point 13.77 billion years ago, all in one tiny space and then something caused it to expand from that point.

It is incredibly difficult to get good information about that period in the history of the universe so scientific research continues to increase our understanding (this is why scientists built the Large Hadron Collider (LHC), high-energy particle accelerator. This allows them to probe energy levels that would have existed in those earliest instants.

Than everything needs a decision and creative force to come into being.

This is a leap in logic that isn’t supported by the evidence you have presented, nor the extensive evidence I’m aware of in high particle physics and modern cosmology.

Because substance is not eternal.

What is ‘substance’ and how do you come to know it is not eternal? What does eternal MEAN if time itself begins to exist when a universal bubble is formed? Time for that universe began but how can there be change outside of time? What if there are multiple dimensions of time? phys.org/news98468776.html

Are you aware of the many working hypotheses that are being explored that involve a ‘multiverse’ outside of our spacetime - String Theory being on of them, also M-brane Theory based on earlier work in String Theory, Loop Quantum Gravity and so forth?

Every time we have thought we lived in a special frame of reference we have been wrong. The Earth isn’t the center of the universe, nor the only planet, nor does the sun revolve around it, nor is it immobile, nor is our solar system unique, nor is there only one galaxy… and it seems likely based on current evidence that ‘universe’ was a misnomer as well. It doesn’t appear likely to be unique.

By sending prophets with holy-writs( The Torah, Bible, Quran etc) and miracles God declares his presence.

Not established by your arguments.

İn different locations and times prophets claim same subjects: There are endless life to come after temporal life, Day of Reckoning , heaven, hell etc.

Infinite punishment for finite transgressions was in the New Testament but not the Old. Judaism doesn’t really have a ‘hell’. Islam was influenced by Judaism and Christianity.

And millions of good and clever people confirm that intelligences by moral discovery and sensation. İf reports of prophet were fanciful and error million of peoples wouldn’t follow prophet candidly.

I’m not sure this assertion rests on very solid ground: iconoclasm2000.blogspot.com/2012/07/the-case-of-sri-sathya-sai-baba.html

For beginning of life on the earth there are several theories and one of these is evolution theory by Charles DARWİN. Evolutionist claim that life occur by chances and healtful mutations. This argument is incorrect.

No, the scientific work on the ‘beginning of life on the earth’ is called abiogenesis.

Evolution accounts for how life diverges into different species over time by the accumulation of gradual change which is DIRECTED by the arrow of Natural Selection.

If you shuffled a deck of cards and dealt them face down into 4 piles and, on inspection, each pile was in perfect order and perfect suits, that would be a near miracle. But if you turn the deck over and SELECT the cards, getting them into 4 ordered piles is a mundane task.

There are thousands impossibilities and contraries of evolution. Charles Darwin himself confesses that to demonstrate evolution there were be countless forms of alive structures of transition forms. But ten thousands aged fossiles are same as present time.

İmpossiblities of evolution: A live cell consist of organelles and indeed fundamentally every alive structure consist of nitrogen, oxygen, carbon,hydrogen and more as like as elements. structure of a cell is like a building but cell is orderlier and more excelent. May like nitrogen, oxygen element s combine by themselves or by chance? Do these elements have brain, sight, cognizance etc?
Do these dominoes know how to add 1 + 1 (with carry)?

No, they don’t-and there are infinite number of possible arrangements of dominoes can do it. This is called ‘computation’. Extremely simple organic chemistry can also form computations. We recently came to understand exactly the computations the neurons in your retina perform to encode visual information on to the optic nerves (which will eventually enable us to restore vision in people who have lost an eye).

The nerves in your retina work exactly like those in your brain-they perform computations and the evidence is that they evolved to this state.

I’m out of room but I wish you well, I hope you will take these things and continue to study, grow, and learn.

 

[mhmtas]

QUOTE DarkStar

İt is not important exactly when universe came into beginning ( 13.77 or 15-20 billions because that is calculated by different ways) but keypoint is that universe has a beginning. Very well let it happen correctly 13.77±0,059 . Where this tiny space came from? İf you do not accept God could you reply this topic completely? What is energy? What is source of energy? Fotons? Small molecules in the atom? Or is energy interaction of these molecules as being said by particle physics but couldn’t be proved but just a prevision( Positive or negative moleculels) ? ( I can’t entirely define because my english is not so well) While Humanbeing couldn’t discover contents and structures of this molecules how it can be considerabed that these molecules came into being by themselves from a tiny space!

Religion and earthly life is an exam. İf presence of God was so obvious than there wouldn’t be meaning in exam. So disbelieving of you is yours decision and exam.

Time starts with acting. Electrons circles around atoms with high speeds. There must be a start for action. Atomic degradation shows that everything has a beginning. Age of materials are calculated by radioactive ( a quick way of atomic degradation). Anyway all substance and also energy and time has a beginning. You can image and posit line and series of material, time and energy . Or multiple dimension of time. But all these concepts would be only mental images that couldn’t be proved. But there is a certain fact that there is universe and this universe needs a beginning. And God by sendings prophets and holy-writs declare his presence as creator of everything. İs there else any creative?

By evolution I mean all ways that do not accept God because people who refuse God rather apply to evolution. And abiogenesis theories adduce and claim that whole atoms come and band together and build alive structure by themselves or chance. Remarks and scientific fact demonstrate this. You bring evidence from existend patterns. Does this happen from scratch bu not

Could someone accept that thinking, life, seeing, hearing and entire senses are funtion of energy? Does energy has sense, life? İf energy was source of life than nobody should die because energy doesn’t finish yet.
I think you do not know exactly about religious especially about İslam. You say İslam was influenced by Judaism Christianity. İf you a bit knew about İslam, Qoran and prophet Mohammed you would not say this. Qoran is words of God just like Bible and Torah. But essences of Bible and Torah are partially corrupted. None letters and passages of Qoran are corrupted. There are about two billions Muslim on the world. Fort the sake of this fact be more careful and honest. And if you inquire these issues and topic İslamic sources but equitably and carefully you will see the facts.

 

[DarkStarTheta]

İt is not important exactly when universe came into beginning

It is deeply important in science, but I shared it simply as a piece of more accurate information.

keypoint is that universe has a beginning.

Not established as a valid premise.

Where this tiny space came from?

Appealing to unknown as being evidence for your claim is called argumentum ad ignorantiam, unsound argumentation.

all substance and also energy and time has a beginning.

Not established.

You can image and posit line and series of material, time and energy . Or multiple dimension of time. But all these concepts would be only mental images that couldn’t be proved.

The beauty of science is that these questions are resolved with evidence because these hypotheses make testable claims that can be refuted or confirmed.

a certain fact that there is universe and this universe needs a beginning.

Not a ‘certain fact’ or else it could be demonstrated with evidence, nor do I think that even if the universe ‘began’, in the classical sense, could this imply the necessity of a creator God.

İs there else any creative?

This is a fallacy known as the Loaded Question. You’re trying to insert your conclusion into your question by saying ‘else’. The questions should be ‘(1) Is there a cause of the universe? (2) Is that cause creative?’. And for both we have no sound evidence.

By evolution I mean all ways that do not accept God because people who refuse God

Fallacy of equivocation.

And abiogenesis theories adduce and claim that whole atoms come and band together and build alive structure by themselves or chance.

I recommend a study of mathematical ‘attractors’. It’s not mere chance but rather that the structure of physics leads to energy becoming bound up in very specific patterns. In the lowest-level of these patterns, energy becomes structured as quarks, leptons, and bosons.

These new forms have properties which caused a slight imbalance in the amount of matter and anti-matter which left the universe dominated by matter, this matter then falls into a pattern called proton and neutron which combine with the electron to form patterns we observe as ‘atoms’. These atoms also have properties of attraction and binding that causes certain types of molecules to dominate the landscape. One of these are the prolific organic series. These organic molecules are naturally attracted into certain patterns, which we observe as self-replicating structures that ,by the nature of successful replication or the failure thereof, are selected by survival and subjected by the properties of organic chemistry and physics to modification/mutation which allows changes to appear, which are further selected by natural processes.

Nothing there suggests mere random chance. That the totality of the arrangement is beyond our ability and knowledge to calculate doesn’t make it random chance.

Even if there are true random elements to nature, the overwhelming progress of energy to particles to molecular structures to organic chemistry to self-replicating forms is clearly driven to these forms by the natural processes.

Could someone accept that thinking, life, seeing, hearing and entire senses are funtion of energy? Does energy has sense, life? İf energy was source of life than nobody should die because energy doesn’t finish yet.

This is poetic but is not sound argumentation. Human beings are often easily swayed by stories that fit our preconceptions, it takes a concerted effort to stick to the evidence.

I think you do not know exactly about religious especially about İslam.

And I think that you have been in error on your ‘scientific’ claims, made many errors of fact, and have used unsound logic.

You say İslam was influenced by Judaism Christianity.

I don’t say it, the facts of history say it.

Wegner J., Exegetical Excursions from Judaism to Islam
Ephal, J, The Ancient Arabs
Frank, Daniel H. and Leaman, Oliver (eds.), History of Jewish philosophy
Geiger, Abraham, Judaism and Islam
Goitein, S D, Jews and Arabs: Their Contact Through the Ages
Huff, Toby E., The Rise of Early Modern Science: Islam, China and the West
Jackson, Bernard S.(ed.), The Interplay of Jewish and Islamic Laws in Jewish Law in Legal History and the Modern World
Kasher, Aryeh, Jews, Idumaeans and Ancient Arabs
Lewis, Bernard, The Jews of Islam
Neusner, Jaob and Sonn, Tamara Sonn, Comparing Religions Through Law: Judaism and Islam
Neusner, Jaob and Sonn, Tamara Sonn, Brockopp, Jonathan E., Judaism and Islam in Practice: A Sourcebook
Viorst, Milton In the Shadow of the Prophet: The Struggle for the Soul of Islam

None letters and passages of Qoran are corrupted.

What could this possibly prove other than a fanaticism in accurate copying of a text?

And if this was true, why would Othman have needed to compile an authoritative version? And why does only about 1/3 of it survive? And how can you know if the surviving copies are without errors when you don’t have the source?

There are about two billions Muslim on the world. Fort the sake of this fact be more careful and honest. And if you inquire these issues and topic İslamic sources but equitably and carefully you will see the facts.

And I say the opposite to you, if you view the facts equitably and carefully you will see they falsify your claims of fact and bring your conclusions into question.

 

[Steinway]

İt is not important exactly when universe came into beginning ( 13.77 or 15-20 billions because that is calculated by different ways) but keypoint is that universe has a beginning. Very well let it happen correctly 13.77±0,059 . Where this tiny space came from? İf you do not accept God could you reply this topic completely? What is energy? What is source of energy? Fotons? Small molecules in the atom? Or is energy interaction of these molecules as being said by particle physics but couldn’t be proved but just a prevision( Positive or negative moleculels) ? ( I can’t entirely define because my english is not so well) While Humanbeing couldn’t discover contents and structures of this molecules how it can be considerabed that these molecules came into being by themselves from a tiny space!

Some of these Muslim arguments are similar the augments by Dr. William Lane Craig & Robert Spitzer, S.J., Ph.D in the “How to Talk To Atheists” product available on this site:

shop.catholic.com/catholic-digital-media/audio-1/mp3-how-to-talk-to-atheists.html

Religion and earthly life is an exam. İf presence of God was so obvious than there wouldn’t be meaning in exam. So disbelieving of you is yours decision and exam.

Very similar to a Catholic argument: “In the Bible, Jesus explains why God seldom reveals himself in the "Parable of the Faithful and Wicked Servants (Luke 12:42). Life is a test. As in the popular adage; while the cat is away, the mice will play. It is self-evident how sycophants fawn over superiors in charge of them, even if they despise them. If everyone was 100% assured of God’s presence, even those who disdain Him the most would be insincere servile flatterers. By carefully maintaining the possibility of not being present, God can observe and judge our true behavior, conduct and demeanor for final judgment. This is not an unfamiliar concept, we do it all the time with one-way mirrors and nanny cams.

ArguingWithAtheists.com/Pages/Arguments.htm

There are about two billions Muslim on the world. Fort the sake of this fact be more careful and honest. And if you inquire these issues and topic İslamic sources but equitably and carefully you will see the facts.

Christianity has about 2.2 billion adherents:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity

Muslims have about 1.8 billion adherents

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim

 

[DarkStarTheta]

Very similar to a Catholic argument: “In the Bible, Jesus explains why God seldom reveals himself

How do you square that with the taunting and then mass murder of the priests of Baal when that god refused to produce on demand (1 Kings 18)?

 

[Steinway]

How do you square that with the taunting and then mass murder of the priests of Baal when that god refused to produce on demand (1 Kings 18)?

Well first of all, do you believe that fire came down from the sky and burned up the drench sacrifice and all the water poured on it?

 

[DarkStarTheta]

Well first of all, do you believe that fire came down from the sky and burned up the drench sacrifice and all the water poured on it?

Last I checked, arguments and evidence don’t depend upon what some other person ‘believes’ so you’ll have to make your case on the merits.

The claim was “God seldom reveals himself”, and yet this excuse wasn’t allowed of Baal, according to your Bible:

[BIBLEDRB]3 Kings 18:27[/BIBLEDRB]

(1 Kings 18 in KJV, et al.)

Let’s say I grant that the events happened as described. What do we see?

We see Elias setting up some rules for the demonstration, set up the altar, sacrifice the bull, appeal to your respective god to set the bull mean on fire and if, successful this is ostensibly ‘proof’ that your god is real.

Elias allows the priests of Baal to go first, they fail, he taunts them, they fail.

Now it is Elias’ turn – in traditional stage magician fashion he CHANGES the rules for himself – at least outwardly to give the APPEARANCE that he is making it “More Difficult” for himself. This is a common technique for misdirection of attention.

A liquid is poured over Elias’ bull meat - he CLAIMS it is water but is any indication given that it is tested? No

Sure enough, it bursts into flames and the victor writes the history book… how many years after these supposed events was this written down exactly?

This isn’t evidence of anything but trickery and mass murder, if it actually happened (which is doubtful).

I can tell you for sure that if it was going to be replicated today it would require the utmost scrutiny of the circumstances or it would fail as evidence.

If you think can demonstrate that your god is a real God I would recommend contacting the JREF - you could win a million dollars if you can do it without cheating (or getting caught cheating anyway)

You could televise it and get tens of millions of Christians to all pray in unison:

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 18:19[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[Michael_Francis]

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