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[josie_L]

Excuse me but get over yourself. If you don’t understand my point in using the words of the pope then read it again. If you have a problem with the way I use the popes words then tough luck.

How can I understand when you considered my questions irrelevant when I asked? So I’ll ask again In what manner was the pope using the term “Kingdom of Heaven”?

Yes, it does. It posits a separation between man and God for the sake of purification and satisfaction of temporal punishment.

Purgatory is a man made invention. It is that simple.

No your interpretation of purgatory is man made. And you still haven’t answered my question where is purification taking place if no unclean thing can get into Heaven?

“Christ refers to the sinner who “will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come” (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? “He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering (“fire”) there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.”

“Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: “In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin” (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.”

“Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.”

catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Actually, I am relieved and delighted!

I like your version better
NO, you have a clean heart and a wonderful spirit. I take my hat off to you with all possible respect

Boy! I just looked and you are realy in the east you are in China is it day time or night? It’s almost 11pm now here in Maine. thank you for the compliment. What kind of music do you like? I have a cd called the music of China and Through the years is one of my favorites and Song of the dancers Ancient mountain song, the dragon dance and alot more. Beautiful music. god Bless you Love of Christ Nancy:thumbsup:

 

[jimmy]

How can I understand when you considered my questions irrelevant when I asked? So I’ll ask again In what manner was the pope using the term “Kingdom of Heaven”?

It is irrelevant because I was using it analagously. I wasn’t using it as support in a direct manner.

No your interpretation of purgatory is man made. And you still haven’t answered my question where is purification taking place if no unclean thing can get into Heaven?

I don’t claim to know the geography of the after life, but you are trying to defend a doctrine about the after life when there is no support for it. Just because it says nothing impure shall enter heaven does not imply purgatory. It says what it says. It could happen in an instant through contact with God at the judgement. It could happen any other way.

Purgatory is a man made doctrine that is based on deductive logic. There is no basis for it in scripture or in the fathers. My interpretation of purgatory is that of the Church. It is specifically a deprivation of the beatific vision for the sake of purification. The beatific vision is contact with God. It is communion with God. Yet, in reallity it is communion with God that is sanctifying. You can not be sanctified other than through communion with God. Read St. Augustine or the Macarian homiles or any of the other fathers for this.

 

[DavidMark]

O thou who hast fixed thy gaze upon the all-glorious Horizon! The Call is raised but hearing ears are numbered, nay non-existent. This Wronged One findeth himself in the maw of the serpent, yet He faileth not to make mention of the loved ones of God. So grievous have been Our sufferings in these days that the Concourse on High are moved to tears and to lamentation. Neither the adversities of the world nor the harm inflicted by its nations could deter Him Who is the King of Eternity from voicing His summons or frustrate His purpose. When those who had for years been hiding behind the veils perceived that the horizon of the Cause was resplendent and that the Word of God was all-pervasive, they rushed forth and with swords of malice inflicted such harm as no pen can portray nor any tongue describe. They that judge with fairness testify that since the early days of the Cause this Wronged One hath arisen, unveiled and resplendent, before the faces of kings and commoners, before the rulers and the divines, and hath, in ringing tones, summoned all men unto the straight Path. He hath had no helper save His Pen, nor any succourer other than Himself.

(Tablets of Baha’u’llah, p. 122)

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

O thou who hast fixed thy gaze upon the all-glorious Horizon! The Call is raised but hearing ears are numbered, nay non-existent. This Wronged One findeth himself in the maw of the serpent, yet He faileth not to make mention of the loved ones of God. So grievous have been Our sufferings in these days that the Concourse on High are moved to tears and to lamentation. Neither the adversities of the world nor the harm inflicted by its nations could deter Him Who is the King of Eternity from voicing His summons or frustrate His purpose. When those who had for years been hiding behind the veils perceived that the horizon of the Cause was resplendent and that the Word of God was all-pervasive, they rushed forth and with swords of malice inflicted such harm as no pen can portray nor any tongue describe. They that judge with fairness testify that since the early days of the Cause this Wronged One hath arisen, unveiled and resplendent, before the faces of kings and commoners, before the rulers and the divines, and hath, in ringing tones, summoned all men unto the straight Path. He hath had no helper save His Pen, nor any succourer other than Himself.

(Tablets of Baha’u’llah, p. 122)

Sorry to break your trance but is this person you speak of a prophet? Nancy

 

[josie_L]

It is irrelevant because I was using it analagously. I wasn’t using it as support in a direct manner.

So the Pope when refering to “the purification of the kingdom of God is part of the kingdom of God” is not speaking of your version of purification nor is he speaking of the “kingdom of Heaven” in the sense of Heaven itself rather he is refering to the universal Church.

I don’t claim to know the geography of the after life, but you are trying to defend a doctrine about the after life when there is no support for it. Just because it says nothing impure shall enter heaven does not imply purgatory. It says what it says. It could happen in an instant through contact with God at the judgement. It could happen any other way.

Purgatory is a man made doctrine that is based on deductive logic. There is no basis for it in scripture or in the fathers. My interpretation of purgatory is that of the Church. It is specifically a deprivation of the beatific vision for the sake of purification. The beatific vision is contact with God. It is communion with God. Yet, in reallity it is communion with God that is sanctifying. You can not be sanctified other than through communion with God. Read St. Augustine or the Macarian homiles or any of the other fathers for this.

Purgatory or final purification (as it is also refered to) happens through cleansing fire (divine in nature, i.e., of God) outside the confines of Heaven, how is this not biblical? Moreover Moses who in the presence of God was warned not to get too close to the burning bush also had to take his sandals off as the ground for which he walked on was holy, and you think that a person who has sinned and needs purification can do so in Heaven (where nothing impure can enter it being this is the dwelling place of God)? And furthermore where is this judgement taking place?

 

[josie_L]

I just wanted to add this to help you understand the CC’s stance:

Some imagine that the Catholic Church has an elaborate doctrine of purgatory worked out, but there are only three essential components of the doctrine: (1) that a purification after death exists, (2) that it involves some kind of pain, and (3) that the purification can be assisted by the prayers and offerings by the living to God. Other ideas, such that purgatory is a particular “place” in the afterlife or that it takes time to accomplish, are speculations rather than doctrines.

 

[DavidMark]

Hi Nancy Dalrymple! (So many Nancy’s in my family! My mother’s mother, my sister, my sister-in-law and my wife are Nancy’s!)
Yes, Bahá’u’lláh was a prophet and more than a prophet. Not a mere supporter as Isaiah was to Moses, but One of the great Law-Givers…and to His loved ones, the culmination of mankind’s religious history on this planet. If people haven’t heard by now, they should 'test the spirits and fruits" and seek out His will in this ‘dark an ruinous age’.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=4030

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Mohammod is a false phrophet, and was on drugs, he saw visions and those people still do.This is written if you see him in the desert do not go, many false god’s will arise as to turn many astray. Paul say’s hold on to what you believe is true let no man decieve you. All these thing’s you were warned before hand. Take heed lest anyone steal away your prize.Many will have itchy ears and leave the faith following false god’s. All these things are the beginning of sorrows and the signs of the great and powerful day of the Lord(Jesus) and who can stand? God be with us all! Nancy

 

[NoWings]

O thou who hast fixed thy gaze upon the all-glorious Horizon! The Call is raised but hearing ears are numbered, nay non-existent. This Wronged One findeth himself in the maw of the serpent, yet He faileth not to make mention of the loved ones of God. So grievous have been Our sufferings in these days that the Concourse on High are moved to tears and to lamentation. Neither the adversities of the world nor the harm inflicted by its nations could deter Him Who is the King of Eternity from voicing His summons or frustrate His purpose. When those who had for years been hiding behind the veils perceived that the horizon of the Cause was resplendent and that the Word of God was all-pervasive, they rushed forth and with swords of malice inflicted such harm as no pen can portray nor any tongue describe. They that judge with fairness testify that since the early days of the Cause this Wronged One hath arisen, unveiled and resplendent, before the faces of kings and commoners, before the rulers and the divines, and hath, in ringing tones, summoned all men unto the straight Path. He hath had no helper save His Pen, nor any succourer other than Himself.

(Tablets of Baha’u’llah, p. 122)

Wrong forum topic, boss.