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Bahman
Guest
We can never know how we know since we don’t know what we know is what we could know through our intuition or experience.
To know or not to know?
- Thread starter meltzerboy
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tdgesq
Guest
If it is possible that nothing can be known, then nothing can be known. Why? Because that possibility (whatever it may consist of) makes knowledge uncertain. Thus, your proposition that “possibly nothing can be known” is also self-refuting. It is not a statement of knowledge. You can’t even consistently state that “possibly nothing can be known,” because to do so makes a claim to knowledge.
Your further claim that even the proposition “possibly nothing can be known” could itself possibly not be known just demonstrates how badly your argument is undermined. If the proposition you advance can’t be know, then at best you are stating a mere belief. But why would your personal belief hold any relevance?
As it turns out, it’s pretty clear that you don’t even hold this belief. If you did then you wouldn’t be using the laws of logic to convince others that “possibly nothing can be known.” Apparently you do believe that some things can be known.
Btw, how could the basic belief “I am in pain” possibly be something that can’t be known?
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Qoeleth
Guest
Precisely. The impossibility of knowledge, if entertained only in possibility, substantiates itself in substance. In fact, I don’t even need to demonstrate that knowledge is impossible, but only that it is possible that it is impossible.
But not even this, it need only be held that it is possible that it is possible.
And, even if this is dubious, that it is possible that it is possible that it is possible.
It could go on infinitely, in a chain of infinite possibilities. Now, just as in a infinite series of coin-flips, sooner or later heads will come up, so, sooner or later all certainty will deconstruct. Or, in an infinite chain, there will be one unsound link- and that is enough to break cause the whole chain to fail.
Possibly. Or possibly, as shown above, it deomonstrate how WELL my argument is constructed. Who knows? Not I, and, neither not you. Granted, you think you know. But that is not the same as knowing.
I suppose my personal belief has as much claim to relevance as your belief that my belief has no relevance.?
Perhaps the sensation of pain is an illusion or hallucination. What grounds are there for believing perception, other than perception itself (which is inadmissable as evidence, due to circularity)?
Perhaps, what constitutes pain and pleasure is merely a relative matter, depending on taste (some people find eating chilli painful, others find it pleasurable).
Perhaps it is all a dream, and you imagine you are subject X experiencing pain, when in reality your are a butterfuly dreaming that you are subject X experiencing pain.
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tdgesq
Guest
Qoeleth,
My position is that knowledge exists. Your position is that knowledge does not exist, because once you posit that “possibly nothing can be known,” you destroy knowledge. You don’t even deny that this is the case.
The reason I can keep writing to you is because I do assert that knowledge exists. I could be mistaken, but at least I’m not contradicting myself. Every time you post something, you are contradicting yourself by your own admission.
If you really believe in your position, then stop posting. Every time you do, you contradict yourself.
And the pain I feel could be an illusion. okay. Then go ahead and place your hand over a hot burner and tell me about your illusion. You don’t even believe your own arguments.
It has been a long time since I’ve seen a position as silly as yours; and that’s saying something.
My position is that knowledge exists. Your position is that knowledge does not exist, because once you posit that “possibly nothing can be known,” you destroy knowledge. You don’t even deny that this is the case.
The reason I can keep writing to you is because I do assert that knowledge exists. I could be mistaken, but at least I’m not contradicting myself. Every time you post something, you are contradicting yourself by your own admission.
If you really believe in your position, then stop posting. Every time you do, you contradict yourself.
And the pain I feel could be an illusion. okay. Then go ahead and place your hand over a hot burner and tell me about your illusion. You don’t even believe your own arguments.
It has been a long time since I’ve seen a position as silly as yours; and that’s saying something.
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wcknight
Guest
Whoooa
We can only ‘know’ what we know, nothing more and nothing less.
Folks simply can not know less or know more than what they know, its contradictory. Think about it…
IF I “knew what I didn’t know”, that too would be contradictory. It would imply that you knew everything, and if you knew everything. then there is not anything that you did not know…
These are all non-sensical statements.
We can only ‘know’ what we know, nothing more and nothing less.
Folks simply can not know less or know more than what they know, its contradictory. Think about it…
IF I “knew what I didn’t know”, that too would be contradictory. It would imply that you knew everything, and if you knew everything. then there is not anything that you did not know…
These are all non-sensical statements.
meltzerboy
New member
You’re right: you cannot “know” what you “do not know.” However, can’t you “know” that there is a lot about a subject that you “do not know”?
meltzerboy
New member
I think in our everyday lives, most of us assume that knowledge does exist. However, we may also assume the knowledge that does exist is, to varying degrees, subject to revision. Therefore, (most) knowledge itself is not thought of as final, permanent, absolute, unchanging. Whether we personally are aware of the “temporary” knowledge that exists for the present is perhaps another, related issue.Qoeleth,
My position is that knowledge exists. Your position is that knowledge does not exist, because once you posit that “possibly nothing can be known,” you destroy knowledge. You don’t even deny that this is the case.
The reason I can keep writing to you is because I do assert that knowledge exists. I could be mistaken, but at least I’m not contradicting myself. Every time you post something, you are contradicting yourself by your own admission.
If you really believe in your position, then stop posting. Every time you do, you contradict yourself.
And the pain I feel could be an illusion. okay. Then go ahead and place your hand over a hot burner and tell me about your illusion. You don’t even believe your own arguments.
It has been a long time since I’ve seen a position as silly as yours; and that’s saying something.
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tonyrey
Guest
Wisdom consists partly of knowledge of our ignorance. 
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wanstronian
Guest
Yes!
meltzerboy
New member
I think that just about sums it up! Of course, I can’t know for sure.
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tdgesq
Guest
If what you mean is that certain things we claim to know have varying degrees of justification, then I agree with you. My issue is with those who claim we can’t know anything whatsoever. One simply can’t assert that the very foundations of knowledge may be flawed without contradiction. Such utterances are incoherent and make no sense. They are literally nonsense.
The Catholic Church teaches that there are things we know; including that God is one, he is almighty, he is benevolent. Vatican I teaches that God can be known through natural reason. These are not optional, for Catholics at least. There are things we don’t know, but we can’t even begin to explore those boundaries when we have Catholic posters claiming we can’t know anything.
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jochoa
Guest
I consider Wisdom to be the most important domain and the means to experience unending joy with unbreakable peace for all to be the most important subject to know because in knowing, we will know the means to get everything wanted and needed. Once we know the means to get everything wanted and needed, we will have all-knowledge.
In my studies of Wisdom and the Heavenly experience, I have learned that we have access to all-wisdom through the Knowledge (Creeds, Sacraments, Prayers, Catechisms, Doctrines and Word) of the Catholic Church.
Although we are growing closer towards understanding complete wisdom, we do not more than we know.
Thanks for the fascinating food for thought! I look forward to hearing critiques of my thinking, as well as further discussion!
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