To Persuade or Convince?

[Tartini]

I have been having a difficult time with a close family member. When it comes to explaining and defending the Catholic Faith, particularly in the area of the true attainment of salvation, ( which I would imagine is the final, and most sought after result one would be seeking) what the the best method to use against one who remains obstinate in error, once they have been informed of the Truth? I ask them if they have ever been baptized and they confound me by answering that they have, but do not know how, when or where it occured!! I realize that the concept of “truth” is often confused with the person’s selective personal opinion, education, psychological makeup and life experiences, so I would hasten to add those points of understanding within the scope of the discussion.

All philosophical bantering aside, we are talking about that which is historically concrete and is taught as a truth in the Church. One can seek salvation and find it, but, as long as we live, we can only hope for the grace to maintain the path to it. They have no understanding of what I mean by the word “grace”. But the person in question is either not sure of the concept(no matter how much I attempt to explain it) and has simply told me that they are refusing to hear God’s call, due to wanting to “do what they want to do”. They feel God has done nothing for them, although I feel that is not really how they truly feel. This is what makes the whole process seem pointless. All my efforts to explain it are counter-answered with unbelievable answers that could only have origins from the enemies of the Church, both seen and unseen.

I would think that it is only in our power to teach by example and historical proofs, and not attempt to overly defend a truth, based on our own limited or erroronous human understanding, since that would seem to make the idea of “truth” questionable, such as when a person who is obviously lying, attempts to convice by always reiterating on the same story, often with varations, in order to seem credible.

What does Our Lord teach on this, and what is the position of the Chuch in situations like this?

I understand that one must admit they are helpless and limited in what they can do, and must call upon Christ and rely upon prayers to help lead that person to Truth. My greatest fear is when one is seemingly “untouchable” to the point that no amount of convincing, if that is possible, or sound persuasion, done with love and understanding, seems to produce any changes. I do not believe in just giving up or giving in, but have only prayer as my guidance. I am gravely concerned at the welfare of this person’s soul. Thanks for any responses.

 

[jhash1]

The call of Jesus for each of us is to do the following according to the teachings and bible studies I have participated in over the last few years:

“Go into the whole world and proclaim the gospel to every creature.” Mark 16:15

Then let us no longer judge one another, but rather resolve never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. St. Paul’s Letter to the Romans 15:13

When I came to you, brothers, proclaiming the mystery of God, I did not come with sublimity of words or of wisdom. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ, and him crucified. I came to you in weakness and fear and much trembling, and my message and my proclamation were not with persuasive words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of spirit and power, so that your faith might rest not on human wisdom but on the power of God. St. Paul’s 1st Letter to the Corinthians 2:1-5

We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit that is from God, so that we may understand the things freely given us by God. And we speak about them not with words taught by human wisdom, but with words taught by the Spirit, describing spiritual realities in spiritual terms. Now the natural person does not accept what pertains to the Spirit of God, for to him it is foolishness, and he can not understand it, because it is judged spiritually. The spiritual person, however, can judge everything but is not subject to judgment by anyone. For “who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to counsel him?” But we have the mind of Christ. St. Paul’s 1st Letter to the Corinthians 2:12-16

With all prayer and supplication, pray at every opportunity in the Spirit. To that end, be watchful with all perseverance and supplication for all the holy ones and also for me, that speech may be given to me to open my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel for which I am an ambassador in chains, so that I may have the courage to speak as I must. St. Paul’s Letter to the Ephesians 6:18-20

Behold, I am sending you like sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and simple as doves. But beware of people, for they will hand you over to courts and scourge you in their synagogues, and you will be led before governors and kings for my sake as a witness before them and the pagans. When they hand you over, do not worry about how you are to speak or what you are to say. You will be given at that moment what you are to say. For it will not be you who speak but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. Matthew 10:16-20

What I have come to learn, much of it from a blessed elder priest who gives wonderful homilies on this subject, it that is our calling is to lead by example and to use our best efforts to share the gospel messages and teachings in a way that will be understood by the person we are talking to, which often means using “church talk” doesn’t work when the person has no foundation or appreciation for that point of reference. What this priest said is we are to follow God’s will and do the works of sharing the Good News with others, but we are not to worry or feel that the “results” of our works are to be evaluated or measured. God is just asking us to do our part to get the Good News out there, God is in charge of the results and may be using each of us to do a small part of the overall salvation plan for people that we share with. We never will know God’s divine plan in this life, or if the role we have been given is the first act, the intermission, or the finale. We are just to love God’s people and do the best we can to carry out the assignments He has given us. We are to trust in Him that the plan will have the outcome he designed in the time frame He chooses. This is a very difficult thing to understand and process for many of us have been evaluated on “results” in our entire adult lives. But the more I think about it, and even sitting here tonight thinking about it, it makes sense to me that we just need to keep doing the work the Lord wants us to and leave to His providence the ultimate plan of salvation for He is the Good Shepherd!

I don’t know if this helps or confuses more, but I thought I’d offer it as a possible idea for supporting you in your ministry and removing some of the anxiety about how it seems to be going.

Keep on doing the Lord’s work and good things will happen in accordance with His plan.

Amen.

 

[Tartini]

Thank you for the very useful information. You have done very well in aiding me, not only in seeking some guidance to my evangelization method question, but provided sound scriptual teaching as to go about it. I can safely venture to say that you have a solid understanding of the matter.
It would seem that one should neither “Persuade or Convince”, as if we were selling a item at a common flea market, but rather allow the Holy Spirit to take the helm and steer the ship where He wants it to go. We can only simply hoist the sails and remain confident that His decision will come in His own Divine Pleasure and Time. Despite the storm that seems to be raging, it cannot rage on forever. A favourable wind is not far behind, and we must wait for it with patience and prayer.

Dominus Vobiscum,
Jerald Franklin Archer

 

[agangbern]

I would think that it is only in our power to teach by example and historical proofs, and not attempt to overly defend a truth, based on our own limited or erroronous human understanding, since that would seem to make the idea of “truth” questionable, such as when a person who is obviously lying, attempts to convice by always reiterating on the same story, often with varations, in order to seem credible.

What does Our Lord teach on this, and what is the position of the Chuch in situations like this?

When someone sincerely questions your faith, you must be ready to give an answer. When someone pretends to know everything and so attacks you with his “knowledge”, then you have to defend. Debate with him if you want to so that the truth would prevail. For even the apostles, they too "debated" among themselves. Acts 15:7``And after a long debate, Peter got up and said…" But in doing so, always strive to observe charity.

 

[Tartini]

When someone sincerely questions your faith, you must be ready to give an answer. When someone pretends to know everything and so attacks you with his “knowledge”, then you have to defend. Debate with him if you want to so that the truth would prevail.

I hope I am not misunderstood in my references of the observances of a suspected liar’s mannerisms . I certainly defend the Church with all of my power, often with too much emphasis, and not enough charity. I am just simply stating a common psychological quality that make a person seem to not be as convincing when they become too “passionate” about explaining something foreign to someone who is bent on not acknowledging the TRUTH even if it were to literally bite him in the hindquarters.
As for a good debate, I am all for it, but I have a difficult time assailing upon an sadly unarmed opponent. I attempt to give them the education, only to have the information considered, mangled with error and ignorance, and flung back in my face, and not one ounce of respect for anything or anyone, let alone themselves. I am often flabbergasted at the warped logic of the individual. One would have to experience it in person to even begin understand the gravity of it.
This person’s whole attitude is markedly tinged, through both actions and words, with an disturbed and intensely reprobate spirit. Certain professional help would seem to also benefit the individual, as well. Here lies the biggest obstacle for attempts at helping them.
To deny the Truths of Our Lord and taught by the Catholic Church, one is either lost their reason or is a heretic.

 

[agangbern]

This person’s whole attitude is markedly tinged, through both actions and words, with an disturbed and intensely reprobate spirit. Certain professional help would seem to also benefit the individual, as well. Here lies the biggest obstacle for attempts at helping them.
To deny the Truths of Our Lord and taught by the Catholic Church, one is either lost their reason or is a heretic.

Remain patient as you are. For even the dull and ignorant, they have a story to tell…

 

[jhash1]

As I was reflecting on this dialog again this morning, the following scripture from 1st Peter, 3:8-18 and 4:7-11 seemed appropriate to supplement the discussion.

Finally, all of you, be of one mind, sympathetic, loving toward one another, compassionate, humble. Do not return evil for evil, or insult for insult; but, on the contrary, a blessing, because to this you were called, that you might inherit a blessing. For: “Whoever would love life and see good days must keep the tongue from evil and the lips from speaking deceit, must turn from evil and do good, seek peace and follow after it. For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears turned to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against evildoers.” Now who is going to harm you if you are enthusiastic for what is good? But even if you should suffer because of righteousness, blessed are you. Do not be afraid or terrified with fear of them, but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts. Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks your for a reason for your hope, but do it with reverence, keeping your conscience clear, so that, when you are maligned, those who defame your good conduct in Christ may themselves be put to shame. For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that be the will of God, than for doing evil. For Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God…

The end of all things is at hand. Therefore, be serious and sober for prayers. Above all, let your love for one another be intense, because love covers a multitude of sins. Be hospitable to one another without complaining. As each one has received a gift, use it to serve one another as good stewards of God’s varied grace. Whoever preaches, let it be with the words of God; whoever serves, let is be with the strength that God supplies, so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

I pray for the success of your evangelization efforts with your close family member and for all your evangelization efforts as you share the Good News.

We pray in the name of our beloved Lord Jesus, with whom His Father was well pleased.

Amen.

 

[agangbern]

. Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks your for a reason for your hope, but do it with reverence, keeping your conscience clear, so that, when you are maligned, those who defame your good conduct in Christ may themselves be put to shame. For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that be the will of God, than for doing evil. For Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God…

Got it.

 

[PJM]

I have been having a difficult time with a close family member. When it comes to explaining and defending the Catholic Faith, particularly in the area of the true attainment of salvation, ( which I would imagine is the final, and most sought after result one would be seeking) what the the best method to use against one who remains obstinate in error, once they have been informed of the Truth? I ask them if they have ever been baptized and they confound me by answering that they have, but do not know how, when or where it occured!! I realize that the concept of “truth” is often confused with the person’s selective personal opinion, education, psychological makeup and life experiences, so I would hasten to add those points of understanding within the scope of the discussion.

My dear freind in Christ,

It is the position of the RCC that we should never force anyone to accept what She Teaches, and holds to be the truth.

It’s not that we haven’t tried too… The Crusades, and the Emperor Constantine was very hard to say “no” too

It is a wise and prudent position. Simply back off and pray, pray, pray, and allow the Holy Spirit, to intercede if that is God’s Will?

Never argue in anger, never debate in anger; in all things LOVE!

We should be no more obstiante in our teaching, then they are in their rejection of same.

 

[agangbern]

Never argue in anger, never debate in anger; in all things LOVE!

We should be no more obstiante in our teaching, then they are in their rejection of same.

In other words, yes continue with your debates so that truth may shine more fully. But do it always striving for charity.