To talk or not to talk!

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nana3

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Hi everyone,
I was hoping that you would pray for a cousin that I have that use to work for Catholic Charities as a psychologist. I have a question too, listed at the end. She worries me for she doesn’t know her Catholic Faith at all. She doesn’t talk to me much for she knows what she will hear from me, the truth, and she doesn’t want to hear it. About 8 years ago, she had a boyfriend that she loved but didn’t know if she wanted to marry him, but he wanted to marry her. I told her to pray about it and trust God. This is when she was working at Catholic Charities. She told me she went to a psychic and this person told her that this man was not for her. This was a very good man and a good Catholic. She broke up with him. Later she met a doctor and he was married before. I told her that she could not get married into the Catholic Church until he can get an annulment. She told me that she was going to do that, but wedding plans went forward and she married outside the Catholic church. She told me later that they will be working on his annulment and she will get her big wedding later in the Catholic Church. Trust me, she already had her big wedding. Her wedding was huge and expensive. The sad thing is that she saved her virginity until her wedding night, but she is living in adultery. Shortly before they got married, she knew I was on NFP and she asked questions about that, but I guess her husband didn’t agree for one month into the marriage, I heard her going to my two sisters that have left the Catholic Church and talk about birth control pills, so she was on that. She has been emailing everyone in my family except me.

My family told me that they received an email that she had a miscarriage. I asked one of my sisters to forward me her email so that I could write to her, but when she forward the email my cousin sent out, she did not have a miscarriage, she aborted her baby because it was an ectopic pregnancy. I didn’t know if that was allowed by the Church or not and it bothered me for it still sounded like a killing. She had an injection to abort the baby. So I found my answer here on this forum from Fr. Frank Pavone and this is what he said in a Q&A:

Here is what Father Frank Pavone (Priests for Life Praises for Priests for Life ) has to say in his Q&A section:

"Question 6: I am an oncology nurse and was asked to give methotrexate for an ectopic pregnancy on another floor since only oncology nurses can give chemotherapeutic drugs. I believe the pregnancy was tubal. Needless to say I refused because I was unsure of the morality of it. I do not know the entire patient situation since the patient was on another floor. Could you please explain the morality of this act according to the church’s teaching. I do not think the mother’s life was in danger at this particular time. Thanks and God bless you. P.S. I work at a catholic hospital

Answer: There is more than one medical way of handling an ectopic pregnancy. The relevant moral question is whether the method or action is in fact a killing of the child. If so, that is a direct abortion, which is never permissible for any reason. “Direct means that the destruction of the child is willed as the end or the means to another end. Sometimes ectopic pregnancies are handled this way, killing the child but leaving the tube intact. Such an action is morally wrong.
However, if what is done is that the damaged portion of the tube is removed because of the threat it poses to the mother, that is not a direct abortion, even if the child dies. What is done is the same thing that would be done if the tube were damaged from some other cause. The mother is not saved by the death of the child but by the removal of the tube. Because the death of the child in this case is a side effect which is not intended, and because the saving of the mother’s life is not brought about by the death of the child, such a removal of the damaged portion of the tube is morally permissible. The ethical rule that applies here is called the Principle of the Double Effect.”

Here is my question to all of you. It is obvious my cousin doesn’t want to hear from me. She is afraid I will correct her and I realize now is not the time for she is an emotional mess and states that in her email. I don’t know if I am sinning by keeping quiet about her life choices, or should I let it all go to keep peace in the family. By the way, she does receive Holy Communion as well. That part bothers me too. It bothers me that she doesn’t know her Faith and taught it at Catholic Charities to those who came in for counseling. Who knows what she counseled them!:eek: Should I just keep quiet and pray for her?
 
Well, she already had the injection, right? So you telling her that it’s immoral will not undo what happened. Maybe you should talk to her as a supportive and loving friend, and opposed to a critic of her choices. I’m sure what happened was very hard for her. Ectopic pregnancies can kill the mother, and as the post you quoted said the Church says some methods of removing the pregnancy are okay while others are not.

Coming into her life at this time to tell her that she is a sinner (aren’t we all) is not the way to bring someone closer to God. If anything it will build her resentment for you, and in connection to you the values and beliefs you represent. The best way for you to draw her in is to be a loving and charitable person, so that she might look and you and think “oh wow, following the Church’s teachings has made my cousin a wonderful person.”
 
I agree with the previous post. Christianity (including Catholicism) is supposed to be a tolerent, compassionate and loving religion. I can´t remember how many times in the bible Jesus forgave sinners. Your duty is to give her support right now, she is going through a very tough time and is more than aware of your opinion. Be compassionate like Christ ands save your moralizing and support your cousin.

What can be gained from withholding your love? Nothing. Be a true Christian and Catholic and open your heart to your cousin.
 
When she is an “emotional wreck” it is not the time to go beating her over the head with the Catechism.

Later, down the road, it may be time to speak to her about the choices she made, maybe she can go to a Project Rachel retreat. I promise you, unless she had researched this and been informed, when she is on that table with a ruptured or rupturing tube - she took what the doctor said as the truth and agreed to an immoral procedure in ignorance. The doctors do not tell you that you have other options, that the tube can be removed (the moral option).

Let her heal, have a mass said for her baby.
 
I agree with all previous posters…Every time something goes wrong in the family, I hear, “that goes against the Bible, etc etc etc” And it’s like ok someone made a mistake so who throws the first stone, eh anyone??? 🤷 It’s really depressing to hear everyone around me always cricitizing someone because they are not living the right Catholic way and it’s like seriously do you think they are going to come in this direction or go towards the ones that are embracing them and showing them compassion?

One of my friends takes Communion and she’s sexually active with other men, I have told her I am unable to have communion because I have been sexually active before and I am not married through the church, and never have so I have stained myself in doing so, therefore I do not take communion…but she looked at me and was like “what who said that?”

Anyhow so just try to be there for her and pray for her, lots of prayers dear! One day you will have the chance to speak with her heart to heart about Catholic religion and more about GOD…

Take care and have a good day!
 
kage_ar said:
When she is an “emotional wreck” it is not the time to go beating her over the head with the Catechism.

Later, down the road, it may be time to speak to her about the choices she made, maybe she can go to a Project Rachel retreat. I promise you, unless she had researched this and been informed, when she is on that table with a ruptured or rupturing tube - she took what the doctor said as the truth and agreed to an immoral procedure in ignorance. The doctors do not tell you that you have other options, that the tube can be removed (the moral option).

Let her heal, have a mass said for her baby.
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I think many of you misunderstood what I wrote, or maybe I didn’t express myself well. First of all, I am not going to email her to judge her or criticize her. I haven’t done so in her lifetime of her marriage and have kept quiet about all her other things. I realize we are all sinners. I am a sinner and not perfect. In my last paragraph, I did say that I realize that she is an emotional mess and it was not the time to correct her and I will probably never correct her for I think what kage stated here above is true. I don’t think she consulted a priest or anything like that. My cousin would not do that anyway. She may go to a psychic though. Either way, like I said, she has kept me off her email list for a reason and I won’t impose myself on her. If I ever run into her and she tells me that she has had a miscarriage, than I will tell her that my sisters told me and that I prayed for her. I will say that I had no way of communicating with her for she has moved and has never given me her new address. She has to my sisters, but not to me. She also has changed her phone number and given it to my sisters and not me. So in all truthfulness, I did not have any way to call or write to her. I do pray for her and I did pray for her last night for it has to be heartbreaking for her. She has been trying for about a year now to get pregnant. I think this one was artificially inseminated according to one of my sisters who talks to her.

But I am sorry that some of you think I am some cold, heartless person who wants to throw the first stone. That was not my intention of this thread. What I was asking was if, like the Bible said, when you know someone who is living in sin and don’t say anything, am I sinning as well? Of course, I would not say anything now to her and I can’t anyway for I don’t have her phone number, email address( have it now because one of sisters forward me her email) or mailing address, but someday if I run into her and we got onto the topic should I say something?

But in her email, her doctor did say that she could have another ectopic pregnancy and that is another reason I was wondering if next time, she should be more informed and not take what the doctors say as the only truth. But you know, I am not going to get involved. I just talked to my mom and she doesn’t want to me say anything at all ever to my cousin. She thinks it will cause problems in the family between my dad and his brother, my uncle. I will leave it the Lord’s Hands and if ever my cousin and I do meet somewhere and get to talking about things, than we will talk, but if not, than we don’t.

I am sorry many of you think I was judging her and if I was, I am truly sorry. I was, I thought only stating the facts. If you only knew me, I take to heart all that you say. I am truly sorry if I upset any of you, if was not my intention. I am not that kind of person. Well, the Lord knows my heart and what I was thinking and where I was coming from. I was really just worried about my cousin’s soul because for years now, no one has said anything to her and I don’t think no one will for fear of breaking the peace in the family. She won’t come to me for she use to and she knows I am “too Catholic” or at least that is what she told one of my non-Catholic sisters. I will just keep praying for her and that the Lord will place in her life a good, holy, Catholic person to help her learn more about her religion and help her increase her faith.

Thank you for your responses and God bless you all. You will all be in my prayers. I know it took time to write you responses and I appreciate it. Thanks again.😉
 
The baby was going to die anyway. She could not have saved it, and nothing she did changed its fate.

I will be honest with you. I don’t get the whole thing about the tube. It seems more pro-life to me to preserve the tube if possible. Again, the baby is GOING to die, no question. Nothing can save it! But the mother has a greater chance of conceiving again with both tubes intact. I personally would not unnecessarily destroy part of my body if I did not have to.

I know people will say it’s the same distinction as a mortally ill patient dying of his disease and being injected with poison by some euthanist. But that mortally ill patient does not reside inside someone else’s body. The mother has the right to preserve her own bodily integrity when she can do so without harming anyone else.

From what I can see, moral chastisement has no place here, even if you can prove, through some tortured theological definition, that what she did was immoral.
 
Wanted to add also that I did not even know about the remove the tube vs. don’t remove the tube moral question until a year or two ago. Had I had an ectopic during the years I was bearing children, I wouldn’t have known either. So it is very credible that she might have been completely ignorant that there would even have been an issue.
 
SaltySirena said:
The baby was going to die anyway. She could not have saved it, and nothing she did changed its fate.

I will be honest with you. I don’t get the whole thing about the tube. It seems more pro-life to me to preserve the tube if possible. Again, the baby is GOING to die, no question. Nothing can save it! But the mother has a greater chance of conceiving again with both tubes intact. I personally would not unnecessarily destroy part of my body if I did not have to.

I know people will say it’s the same distinction as a mortally ill patient dying of his disease and being injected with poison by some euthanist. But that mortally ill patient does not reside inside someone else’s body. The mother has the right to preserve her own bodily integrity when she can do so without harming anyone else.

From what I can see, moral chastisement has no place here, even if you can prove, through some tortured theological definition, that what she did was immoral.
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I don’t think that there is any moral chastisement going on here. There is more on this topic of ectopic pregnancy on this forum and you can do a search and they did not see it as moral chastisement either.

I simply quoted what Fr. Frank Pavone answered. As far as the “Double Effect” read more on it from this EWTN website. Just keep scrolling down until you see it where if says something about the life saving the life of the mother being and it mentions the double effect. ewtn.com/library/PROLENC/ENCYC043.HTM
But here is what it says: (Chapter 43)

Abortion to Save the Life of the Mother
The 'Double Effect.'
*Source of Confusion.

The very rare cases of pregnancy that pose a real and immediate threat to the mother’s life including uterine cancer and ectopic pregnancies are a source of great confusion, especially among Catholics.

It is absolutely true that the Catholic Church bans abortion to save the life of the mother. However (and this is an extremely important point) the mother’s life may be saved by a surgical procedure that does not directly attack the unborn baby’s life.

The most common dysfunctions that may set a mother’s life against that of her unborn child’s are the ectopic pregnancy, carcinoma of the uterine cervix, and cancer of the ovary. Occasionally, cancer of the vulva or vagina may indicate surgical intervention.

In such cases, under the principle of the “double effect,” attending physicians must do everything in their power to save both the mother and the child. If the physicians decide that, in the case of an ectopic pregnancy, the mother’s life can only be saved by the removal of the Fallopian tube (and with it, the unborn baby), or by removal of some other tissue essential for the preborn baby’s life, the baby will of course die. But this would not be categorized as an abortion. This is all the difference between deliberate murder (abortion) and unintentional natural death.

The principle of the “double effect” also applies to sexual sterilization. If a woman must have a hysterectomy to remove a dangerously cancerous uterus, this will result in her sterilization, but is not a sinful act. However, if the purpose of the operation is not to heal or safeguard health, but to directly sterilize, then that act is intrinsically evil and is always a mortal sin.[12]*
 
nana3 said:
Hi everyone,
I was hoping that you would pray for a cousin that I have that use to work for Catholic Charities as a psychologist. I have a question too, listed at the end. She worries me for she doesn’t know her Catholic Faith at all. She doesn’t talk to me much for she knows what she will hear from me, the truth, and she doesn’t want to hear it. About 8 years ago, she had a boyfriend that she loved but didn’t know if she wanted to marry him, but he wanted to marry her. I told her to pray about it and trust God. This is when she was working at Catholic Charities. She told me she went to a psychic and this person told her that this man was not for her. This was a very good man and a good Catholic. She broke up with him. Later she met a doctor and he was married before. I told her that she could not get married into the Catholic Church until he can get an annulment. She told me that she was going to do that, but wedding plans went forward and she married outside the Catholic church. She told me later that they will be working on his annulment and she will get her big wedding later in the Catholic Church. Trust me, she already had her big wedding. Her wedding was huge and expensive. The sad thing is that she saved her virginity until her wedding night, but she is living in adultery. Shortly before they got married, she knew I was on NFP and she asked questions about that, but I guess her husband didn’t agree for one month into the marriage, I heard her going to my two sisters that have left the Catholic Church and talk about birth control pills, so she was on that. She has been emailing everyone in my family except me.

My family told me that they received an email that she had a miscarriage. I asked one of my sisters to forward me her email so that I could write to her, but when she forward the email my cousin sent out, she did not have a miscarriage, she aborted her baby because it was an ectopic pregnancy. I didn’t know if that was allowed by the Church or not and it bothered me for it still sounded like a killing. She had an injection to abort the baby. So I found my answer here on this forum from Fr. Frank Pavone and this is what he said in a Q&A:

Here is what Father Frank Pavone (Priests for Life Praises for Priests for Life ) has to say in his Q&A section:

"Question 6: I am an oncology nurse and was asked to give methotrexate for an ectopic pregnancy on another floor since only oncology nurses can give chemotherapeutic drugs. I believe the pregnancy was tubal. Needless to say I refused because I was unsure of the morality of it. I do not know the entire patient situation since the patient was on another floor. Could you please explain the morality of this act according to the church’s teaching. I do not think the mother’s life was in danger at this particular time. Thanks and God bless you. P.S. I work at a catholic hospital

Answer: There is more than one medical way of handling an ectopic pregnancy. The relevant moral question is whether the method or action is in fact a killing of the child. If so, that is a direct abortion, which is never permissible for any reason. “Direct means that the destruction of the child is willed as the end or the means to another end. Sometimes ectopic pregnancies are handled this way, killing the child but leaving the tube intact. Such an action is morally wrong.
However, if what is done is that the damaged portion of the tube is removed because of the threat it poses to the mother, that is not a direct abortion, even if the child dies. What is done is the same thing that would be done if the tube were damaged from some other cause. The mother is not saved by the death of the child but by the removal of the tube. Because the death of the child in this case is a side effect which is not intended, and because the saving of the mother’s life is not brought about by the death of the child, such a removal of the damaged portion of the tube is morally permissible. The ethical rule that applies here is called the Principle of the Double Effect.”

Here is my question to all of you. It is obvious my cousin doesn’t want to hear from me. She is afraid I will correct her and I realize now is not the time for she is an emotional mess and states that in her email. I don’t know if I am sinning by keeping quiet about her life choices, or should I let it all go to keep peace in the family. By the way, she does receive Holy Communion as well. That part bothers me too. It bothers me that she doesn’t know her Faith and taught it at Catholic Charities to those who came in for counseling. Who knows what she counseled them!:eek: Should I just keep quiet and pray for her?
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So you have a family member who is not obedient to God or the faith? WELCOME to the club!
I would just keep quiet and pray. Remember the reading from last week? “A prophet is not without honor except in his own house.”
She killed a person. I doubt that she will want that beaten into her.
But I mean you wont even get a consensus on these Catholic boards that what she did was wrong. A sad state we live in.
 
Interestingly enough, I decided to write to my cousin after some prayers. It was supportive and I just told her that I am praying for her. I don’t know how to respond to something she wrote. She is on vacation and this is what she wrote:

"I’m not in pain anymore. I just have sporadic, light cramping and more bleeding, which means the shot is working. But knowing the shot is working by seeing the blood is bizarre because in my mind I think to myself it means the baby is dying. Morbid, I know, but it’s what goes through my mind."

I think it is sinking in that her baby is dying.
 
nana3 said:
Interestingly enough, I decided to write to my cousin after some prayers. It was supportive and I just told her that I am praying for her. I don’t know how to respond to something she wrote. She is on vacation and this is what she wrote:

"I’m not in pain anymore. I just have sporadic, light cramping and more bleeding, which means the shot is working. But knowing the shot is working by seeing the blood is bizarre because in my mind I think to myself it means the baby is dying. Morbid, I know, but it’s what goes through my mind."

I think it is sinking in that her baby is dying.
Click to expand...
It makes me a little sick. But, I am not sure how I would respond either. Sounds like you two are close. I can’t imagine someone sharing this type of horor with extended family. Especially if they knew how I believed.
 
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