Tobit 12:9

[zach_dunn]

Tobit 12:9
“9 For almsgiving delivers from death, and it will purge away every sin. Those who perform deeds of charity and of righteousness will have fullness of life.”

In a recent discussion, this verse was used to disprove the deutero-canon. Saying that this verse teaches atonement of sins by almsgiving which is a contradiction to what Jesus taught.

Which brought me to the question of just how DO we atone for our sins? Not because I doubt the Catholic position, I don’t know it. And that’s what I’m looking for.

What are your guys’ thoughts?

 

[Omyo12]

Tobit 12:9
“9 For almsgiving delivers from death, and it will purge away every sin. Those who perform deeds of charity and of righteousness will have fullness of life.”

In a recent discussion, this verse was used to disprove the deutero-canon. Saying that this verse teaches atonement of sins by almsgiving which is a contradiction to what Jesus taught.

Which brought me to the question of just how DO we atone for our sins? Not because I doubt the Catholic position, I don’t know it. And that’s what I’m looking for.

What are your guys’ thoughts?

Serious question: where does Jesus condemn atonement through almsgiving?
thanks!!

crowhill.net/journeyman/Vol1No3/atonement.html

Proverbs 19:17 (NASB)
“One who is gracious to a poor man lends to the LORD, And He will repay him for his good deed.”

 

[zach_dunn]

Serious question: where does Jesus condemn atonement through almsgiving?
thanks!!

I don’t know where they got this notion. They haven’t talked to me since, I asked them that same question. I just didn’t know how atonement works in Catholic theology.

BTW, thanks for the link.

 

[Belloc_Fan]

Tobit 12:9
“9 For almsgiving delivers from death, and it will purge away every sin. Those who perform deeds of charity and of righteousness will have fullness of life.”

In a recent discussion, this verse was used to disprove the deutero-canon. Saying that this verse teaches atonement of sins by almsgiving which is a contradiction to what Jesus taught.

Which brought me to the question of just how DO we atone for our sins? Not because I doubt the Catholic position, I don’t know it. And that’s what I’m looking for.

What are your guys’ thoughts?

I’ve heard the same thing. The logic goes:
(1) Justification is through faith alone, and works don’t matter (except as a sign of our gratitude for having been saved)
(2) Therefore, this notions contradicts the Biblical view’;
(3) Therefore, this is not part of the Bible.

The basic presumption is wrong, of course. But perhaps it’d be easier to just say that Tobit 12:9 is wholly consistent with this part of the New Testament, Matthew 19:21-22:

Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

See the parallel account in Mark 10:17-23.

It should be noted that in neither case is it the mere act of giving money – that is, if someone *doesn’t believe *in God, following the Commandments and giving away everything that they own (Jesus’ prescription for eternal life to the man in these parallel accounts) won’t avail them of anything. These acts are acts of obedience towards God, and can be considered acts of faith. But it likewise shows that merely *believing in *Jesus is insufficient, if that belief doesn’t motivate us to act as well: the man in this account believed in Jesus, and wanted to be His disciple; he just didn’t want to do the works required to get there.

 

[William1964]

It goes against there erroneous idea of faith alone. The text in Tobias implies works and faith because for a deed to be righteous it has to be a deed commited with faith.

 

[marymol]

Seems to go along perfectly well with what St.Paul warned - ’ love of money is root of all
evil ’ ; almsgiving , if done in its best sense , out of love for God , wanting to do what He wills and out of love for one’s neighbor as well as for oneself ( giving can be a cause for joy and gratitude ) , does it not fulfill the commands !

Seems our Lord, in turning hearts to love Him and trust Him and thus ourselves , for we see how we are loved ,in spite of …and not just us but our neighbor too , and at what price, we are no longer under the agent of self hatred that then make us want to find false idols/false images of ourselves , to make us feel valued and secure … which can lead us also to see the other as someone to be used to feed that idol, with the attendant fears that such never filling goals may not work and more desperate attempts to keep at it …

Even Tobit may not have been all free from such in his early phase , for we seem him loosing heart at the words of his wife …did he too have the weakness of seeing oneself , under the false image / idol of ones works …the merciful Gid came through …and seemed to have given him a deeper grasp of how loving and merciful God is … so that he too could …and thus be saved from all false idols resulting from our ‘fall’ of not being able to even truly love ourselves …see our own innate dignity and preciousness , through the heart and eyes of our Father …and of the other… and love our Father with such a joyful , grateful heart…

Peace !

 

[tobinatorstark]

Tobit 12:9
“9 For almsgiving delivers from death, and it will purge away every sin. Those who perform deeds of charity and of righteousness will have fullness of life.”

In a recent discussion, this verse was used to disprove the deutero-canon. Saying that this verse teaches atonement of sins by almsgiving which is a contradiction to what Jesus taught.

Which brought me to the question of just how DO we atone for our sins? Not because I doubt the Catholic position, I don’t know it. And that’s what I’m looking for.

What are your guys’ thoughts?

From the Haydock Bible Commentary

Ver. 9. Everlasting. This word is not found in Greek, though sufficiently implied; as liberality does not always secure a person’s life, or temporal happiness. (Calmet) — Greek, “Those who perform alms-deeds and justice, shall be filled with life. But sinners are enemies,” &c.

I think this speaks for itself. Nothing in Scripture is contradictory to anything else in scripture or Jesus has contradicted himself. I know that Jesus didn’t contradict himself.

 

[Jesus_123]

Hi Zach . . . in regard to the Tobit 12:9 portion of **Sacred :bible1: Scripture **. . **. St. John the Apostle **. . . clarifies this for us in the following passage in the . . . New Testament. . . dealing with the absolute correlation of true Christian faith being always manifested by works in the life of man . . .

:bible1:
So faith also,
if it have
not
works,
is dead in itself.
…
Thou believest that there is one God.
Thou dost well:
the devils also believe and tremble.
But wilt thou know,
O vain man, that
faith without works is dead?
…
For even as the body without the spirit is dead;
so also
faith without works is dead.
John 2:17, 19-20, 26

In relation to . . . atonement . . . as sinners we **can’t ** atone for our sins . . . only our sinless . . . Christ Jesus. . . **God the Son **. . . was able to handle this activity for us . . .

The Original
Catholic Encyclopedia
Doctrine of the Atonement
by W. H. Kent

**“Satisfaction of
**Christ, ****
Whereby
**GOD **
and the World
Are Reconciled or Made
To Be At One”

:coffeeread: … As both Abelard and Bernard remind us, the Atonement is the work of love.

It is essentially a sacrifice, **the one supreme sacrifice **of which the rest were but types and figures. And, as St. Augustine teaches us, the outward rite of sacrifice is the sacrament, or sacred sign, of the invisible sacrifice of the heart . It was by this inward sacrifice of obedience unto death, by this perfect love with which He laid down His life for His friends, that Christ paid the debt to justice, and taught us by His example, and drew all things to Himself; it was by this that He wrought our Atonement and Reconciliation with God, "making peace through the blood of His ****Cross.".

**Link: **oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Doctrine_of_the_Atonement

*Hope this helps . . . God bless . . . *

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank You Dear Lord+

. . . Sweet Holy Spirit of our Wonderful God+
. . . guide and direct+​

 

[zach_dunn]

Hi Zach . . . in regard to the Tobit 12:9 portion of **Sacred :bible1: Scripture **. . **. St. John the Apostle **. . . clarifies this for us in the following passage in the . . . New Testament. . . dealing with the absolute correlation of true Christian faith being always manifested by works in the life of man . . .

:bible1:
So faith also,
if it have
not
works,
is dead in itself.
…
Thou believest that there is one God.
Thou dost well:
the devils also believe and tremble.
But wilt thou know,
O vain man, that
faith without works is dead?
…
For even as the body without the spirit is dead;
so also
faith without works is dead.
John 2:17, 19-20, 26

In relation to . . . atonement . . . as sinners we can’t atone for our sins . . . only our sinless . . . Christ Jesus. . . **God the Son **. . . was able to handle this activity for us . . .*Hope this helps . . . God bless . . . *

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank You Dear Lord+

. . . Sweet Holy Spirit of our Wonderful God+
. . . guide and direct+​

It does and thank you, but I do believe you meant James the Apostle, because those quotes are taken from the letter of James.

 

[Jesus_123]

It does and thank you, but I do believe you meant James the Apostle, because those quotes are taken from the letter of James.

:blushing: Oops! Thanks for the corrections Zach . . . I forgot to proof my source chapter and verse . . . *haste made for waste in this instance *. . . I appreciate your catching the error . . . I occassionally save a posting on my computer for future reference . . . and I had saved this one . . . so I’ll go correct that copy also . . . *right now . . .**God bless . . . and thanks again . . . *

. . . all for Jesus+​

 

[ChadS]

If the Book of Tobit meant to imply that only almsgiving prevented death and purged sins than maybe your friend would have have a point. However there is great danger in cherry picking one verse from here and another from there to come up with a theology. It is necessary to take scripture as a whole. When that is done you see that almsgiving is only one part. You also have to have belief, faith and the other good works that go along with and compliment almsgiving.

ChadS

 

[Todd_Easton]

When Tobit says that almsgiving atones for sins he is referring either to venial sins or to the temporal punishment due to grave sins. Only Christ’s death on the cross can atone for the eternal punishment due to grave sins. We participate in Christ’s death on the cross when we receive the sacraments of Baptism, Penance, and the Anointing of the Sick or when we manifest perfect love or perfect contrition.

 

[ron77nyc]

When Tobit says that almsgiving atones for sins he is referring either to venial sins or to the temporal punishment due to grave sins. Only Christ’s death on the cross can atone for the eternal punishment due to grave sins. We participate in Christ’s death on the cross when we receive the sacraments of Baptism, Penance, and the Anointing of the Sick or when we manifest perfect love or perfect contrition.

Tobit could not have known about the New Covenant. It did not exist in his day. He was observing a covenant which required constant and continuing offering of sacrifices for atonement of sins.

 

[Brian2589]

The other folks did a good job but here are some New Testament verses you can use for almsgiving.:
Lk 11:41 But give for alms those things which are within; and behold, everything is clean for you.
Acts 10:2-4 a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms liberally to the people, and prayed constantly to God. About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, “Cornelius.” And he stared at him in terror, and said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, "Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God.