Today you will be with me in Paradise

[John655]

I’ve always wondered about what Jesus said to the thief on the cross, when He declared, “Today, you will be with me in paradise.” Scripture, and our Creed, tell us that Jesus died, descended to the dead, and preached to the souls in “prison.”

I’ve been taught that the “souls in prison” were the righteous people from the time before the crucifixion, who could not merit heaven until the sacrifice of Christ. What a joy it must have been for Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Hannah, Samuel, and the other souls there to see Jesus face to face and hear his saving message!

My question is this: the day Jesus died, He was not in heaven - He was preaching to the souls in “prison.” Wouldn’t purgatory and “prison” be the same state of existence? So when Jesus told the theif on the cross, “Today you will be with me in paradise,” did paradise mean the state of purgarory - because that’s where Jesus was? Thanks in advance for your insights.

 

[inkaneer]

My question is this: the day Jesus died, He was not in heaven - He was preaching to the souls in “prison.” Wouldn’t purgatory and “prison” be the same state of existence? So when Jesus told the theif on the cross, “Today you will be with me in paradise,” did paradise mean the state of purgarory - because that’s where Jesus was? Thanks in advance for your insights.

That is the way I understand it. In the creed we profess that following His death, Jesus descended into “hell” then rose on the third day. On that day which was the first day of the week, Jesus told Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet risen to the Father. No one beat Jesus into heaven not Dismas, John the Baptist nor any OT saint.

 

[John655]

This is what confuses me - I’ve heard people say that the thief suffered a martyr’s death, and went right to heaven, or others say that Christ gave the thief a plenary indulgence from the cross, so the theif went straight to heaven.

But when the thief and Jesus died, no one was in heaven yet, except for God the Father, the Holy Spirit, and the angels, right? Like you said, Jesus lead the righteous souls into heaven after the Ascention.

That leaves me w/ the question - when Jesus said to the thief on the cross, “Today, you will be with me in paradise,” did paradise mean the state of purgatory?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

This is what confuses me - I’ve heard people say that the thief suffered a martyr’s death, and went right to heaven, or others say that Christ gave the thief a plenary indulgence from the cross, so the theif went straight to heaven.

But when the thief and Jesus died, no one was in heaven yet, except for God the Father, the Holy Spirit, and the angels, right? Like you said, Jesus lead the righteous souls into heaven after the Ascention.

That leaves me w/ the question - when Jesus said to the thief on the cross, “Today, you will be with me in paradise,” did paradise mean the state of purgatory?

There was no punctuation in the original scriptures. Therefore it is entirely possible that Christ said this:

I say to you this day: you will be with me in Paradise.

See the difference?

 

[smichhertz]

It may be worthwhile to note that Heaven, Hell and Purgatory are outside of time. So what may have been three days to us, could have been instantaneous to them. We won’t really fully understand how it all works out, until (God willing) we get to Heaven.

 

[kath85]

In what I have known about purgatory, is that it is a condition not really a place because I’ m not sure if this is true because I have heard and read the article that Pope John Paul The Second had said and had change something, that purgatory is something like a condition of the dead souls not a place but I do not know if this is true and i’ m also not sure if my understanding is correct, but about paradise for me it is the kingdom of God

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I’ve always wondered about what Jesus said to the thief on the cross, when He declared, “Today, you will be with me in paradise.” Scripture, and our Creed, tell us that Jesus died, descended to the dead, and preached to the souls in “prison.”

I’ve been taught that the “souls in prison” were the righteous people from the time before the crucifixion, who could not merit heaven until the sacrifice of Christ. What a joy it must have been for Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Hannah, Samuel, and the other souls there to see Jesus face to face and hear his saving message!

My question is this: the day Jesus died, He was not in heaven - He was preaching to the souls in “prison.” Wouldn’t purgatory and “prison” be the same state of existence? So when Jesus told the theif on the cross, “Today you will be with me in paradise,” did paradise mean the state of purgarory - because that’s where Jesus was? Thanks in advance for your insights.

At the transfiguration, Moses and Elijah were seen talking to Jesus face to face. And Christ said that Abraham "rejoiced’ to see His day. Obviously it didn’t take them by surprise.

As far as I’m concerned, the thief was a special case, crucified right next to Christ. He gave testimony to Christ, rebuked the other thief, in front of a hostile crowd, while dying in extreme agony.

As far as “imprisoned spirits” go, I suspect that was all spirits, good and bad. Christ’s crucifixion was a watershed in the judgement. As Paul said, in the past God overlooked men’s sins, but not any more.

I personally believe in Purgatory, as a place of purification. We might be forgiven, but if we haven’t made much effort to get rid of pet bad habits (i’ve got a few), and recurring sins, then we will have to do something about it after death if we don’t deal with it before death.

I suppose I tend to use my father as an example. He had a vile temper, and I think it would be accurate to say by the time he died, he **was **a bad temper. But if he’d confessed and repented on his deathbed, I think he’d have been forgiven.

However going by the scream when he "visited’ me on the night of his death, I have a strong suspicion he’s in Hell.

However suppose he’d repented, and been forgiven. He would not have done one thing in his lifetime about his bad temper. And I don’t think God’s just going to wave a magic wand and give us a new completely benigh personality. If He did, then all the talk about pursuing personal holiness is a waste of time. Why bother, if it’s going to be that easy?

Hence it seems to me there is a logical necessity for purgatory. After all, Christ said about the unforgiving servant, “there (prison) you will stay, I tell you, until you have paid every last penny of your fine.” It’s a prison, and it carries the term “until”.

But I think the thief got away with it, for the simple reason he was literally crucified with Christ, and in a sense was paying for his own sins on the cross just as Christ was for ours. Or if you like, his suffering was tied to that of Christ.

 

[Scoobyshme]

I’ve always wondered about what Jesus said to the thief on the cross, when He declared, “Today, you will be with me in paradise.” Scripture, and our Creed, tell us that Jesus died, descended to the dead, and preached to the souls in “prison.”

I’ve been taught that the “souls in prison” were the righteous people from the time before the crucifixion, who could not merit heaven until the sacrifice of Christ. What a joy it must have been for Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Hannah, Samuel, and the other souls there to see Jesus face to face and hear his saving message!

My question is this: the day Jesus died, He was not in heaven - He was preaching to the souls in “prison.” Wouldn’t purgatory and “prison” be the same state of existence? So when Jesus told the theif on the cross, “Today you will be with me in paradise,” did paradise mean the state of purgarory - because that’s where Jesus was? Thanks in advance for your insights.

Keep in mind that Jesus is God. God is everywhere, at all times (past, present, future). He does not live from moment to moment like we do. When Jesus died, He was in eternity, so He could be in heaven and purgatory simultaneously.

 

[GEddie]

There was no punctuation in the original scriptures. Therefore it is entirely possible that Christ said this:

I say to you this day: you will be with me in Paradise.

See the difference?

I’m studying Biblical Greek, and according to the textbook, they did in fact have punctuation.

In any case, your version (which did not appear until 1808, BTW, and was not widespread until the Jehovah’s Witnesses adopted it) doesn’t make any sense.

Why would one need to say, “I say to you THIS DAY”??

Of course it was “this day.” It wasn’t “yesterday”, and all 3 of them would be gone by “tomorrow.”

“I say to you this day” is unnecessary wordage, especially for someone who can’t breathe easily.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA.

 

[Mintaka]

Hades/Sheol/“in prison”/“Abraham’s bosom” doesn’t seem to be hell-hell, but it’s apparently a lot closer to Hell than Heaven. You didn’t suffer, but you weren’t super happy with God, either.

Purgatory is part of Heaven. It may be the antechamber to Heaven, or it may be that even Heaven is none too pleasant to us until we’ve been made ready. St. Macrina compared God’s loving presence to a burning fire that burned up the wicked completely (Hell), burned off the imperfections of the imperfect (Purgatory), and was comfy and warm to those who were already much like Christ (Heaven). The Pope today gave the image of Purgatory being the first burning gaze of Christ’s loving eyes upon us when He judges us after death – hard to bear at first, but making us fit for Heaven.

Either way, Heaven exists in eternity, outside time. When it comes to all this eternal stuff, time has very little meaning and you can’t say what’s First. Everything is happening eternally.

 

[onlyvoice]

I’m studying Biblical Greek, and according to the textbook, they did in fact have punctuation.

In any case, your version (which did not appear until 1808, BTW, and was not widespread until the Jehovah’s Witnesses adopted it) doesn’t make any sense.

Why would one need to say, “I say to you THIS DAY”??

Of course it was “this day.” It wasn’t “yesterday”, and all 3 of them would be gone by “tomorrow.”

“I say to you this day” is unnecessary wordage, especially for someone who can’t breathe easily.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA.

There was no punctuation in the inspired original Greek which Luke wrote. Punctuation was added into the Greek centuries later.

The Companion Bible, 1990, Appendix 173, p. 192 says that Jesus’ reply, “Assuredly I say to you today” was a “common Hebrew idiom… which is constantly used for very solemn emphasis.”

The wordage may be unnecessary to you, but it may not be to other people of different culture.

 

[marica_mandic]

I’ve always wondered about what Jesus said to the thief on the cross, when He declared, “Today, you will be with me in paradise.” Scripture, and our Creed, tell us that Jesus died, descended to the dead, and preached to the souls in “prison.”

I’ve been taught that the “souls in prison” were the righteous people from the time before the crucifixion, who could not merit heaven until the sacrifice of Christ. What a joy it must have been for Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Hannah, Samuel, and the other souls there to see Jesus face to face and hear his saving message!

My question is this: the day Jesus died, He was not in heaven - He was preaching to the souls in “prison.” Wouldn’t purgatory and “prison” be the same state of existence? So when Jesus told the theif on the cross, “Today you will be with me in paradise,” did paradise mean the state of purgarory - because that’s where Jesus was? Thanks in advance for your insights.

If Jesus said you will be with me in heaven, no comment.
He was in Heaven that day.
He can at the same day be in hell and heaven.

 

[inkaneer]

If Jesus said you will be with me in heaven, no comment.
He was in Heaven that day.
He can at the same day be in hell and heaven.

That is not what Jesus said. In John 20:17 Jesus tells Mary Magdalene:

“Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”

So Jesus was not in heaven on Friday or Saturday or the morning of Resurrection Sunday. We know that Thomas touches Him eight days later so did He ascend in the interim or by saying He had, “not yet ascended to the Father” is He referring to Ascension Thursday some forty days later? I think He ascended after speaking with Mary and before Thomas touches Him. Ascension Thursday marks the end of His earthly presence in physical form.

 

[James224]

I’ve always wondered about what Jesus said to the thief on the cross, when He declared, “Today, you will be with me in paradise.” Scripture, and our Creed, tell us that Jesus died, descended to the dead, and preached to the souls in “prison.”

I’ve been taught that the “souls in prison” were the righteous people from the time before the crucifixion, who could not merit heaven until the sacrifice of Christ. What a joy it must have been for Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Hannah, Samuel, and the other souls there to see Jesus face to face and hear his saving message!

My question is this: the day Jesus died, He was not in heaven - He was preaching to the souls in “prison.” Wouldn’t purgatory and “prison” be the same state of existence? So when Jesus told the theif on the cross, “Today you will be with me in paradise,” did paradise mean the state of purgarory - because that’s where Jesus was? Thanks in advance for your insights.

Paradise was the Bosom of Abraham which was in the upper parts of Hell. You see this in Luke 16 with the rich man and Lazarus. This was where the good thief was until Christ ascended into heaven and opened the gates 40 days later. Purgatory is also there in hell where in 1 Pet 3:19 it says Christ preached to the spirits in prison.

 

[adrift]

From the Faith Database

3857
paradeisos
paradeisw
3857 paradeisos {par-ad’-i-sos} of Oriental origin cf 06508; TDNT - 5:765,777; n m 1) among the Persians a grand enclosure or preserve, hunting ground, park, shady and well watered, in which wild animals, were kept for the hunt; it was enclosed by walls and furnished with towers for the hunters 2) a garden, pleasure ground 2a) grove, park 3) the part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of pious until the resurrection: but some understand this to be a heavenly paradise 4) the upper regions of the heavens. According to the early church Fathers, the paradise in which our first parents dwelt before the fall still exists, neither on the earth or in the heavens, but above and beyond the world 5) heaven

 

[Salvatore123]

The verse John 14:2 “In my Father’s house there are many mansions” has been interpreted as follows:

Not all who enter heaven will experience the Beatific Vision in the same manner and to the same degree. This can easily be accounted for by the differences between, say, a Mother Theresa and my grandmothers (who, in my eyes, were both very good women who had a very strong faith), and babies who die through abortion.

God would never “punish” those who enter heaven because of their “limitations” while on earth or how they were killed, if it was done through no fault of their own. Yet, one cannot deny the difference between the soul of an unborn baby and the soul of a true saint.

The “different mansions” Christ refers to means those “places” where different people will experience God in a different manner. Although, for instance, an aborted child, will enjoy the Beatific Vision, he will only do so to the extent it is possible for him to do so, given the constraints on him not being baptized, not learning about God and Christ, etc.

This does NOT mean that anyone in heaven will suffer or be “short changed” in some way. It simply means that someone such as a John Paul II or a St. Thomas More, because of their piety and closeness to God while on earth, will be able to experience the Beatific Vision than someone such as me, who “ranks” no where near the goodness and closeness to God as such people.

The unique and “saving grace” about this concept is that those who are unable to experience the Beatific Vision at the same degree as another, will never know the difference, and thus cannot be said to be suffering or “left out” in some manner; they will experience God to the greatest extent possible for them.

The following seems to support the view I outlined above:

"The Council of Trent defined that the justified person merits an increase of the heavenly glory by good works. Dz 842.

"Christ promised: “He (the Son of Man) will render to every one according to his works” (Mt. 16:27). St. Paul teaches: “And every man shall receive his own reward, according to his own labour” (1 Cor. 3:8). “He who soweth sparingly shall also reap sparingly: and he that soweth in blessings shall also reap blessings” (2 Cor. 9:6). Cf. 1 Cor. 15:41 et seq.

“The Fathers are fond of appealing to the words of Jesus concerning the many mansions in die Father’s House (John 14:2). Tertullian remarks: “Why are there many mansions in the Father’s house, if not on account of the difference of the merits?” (Scorp. 6). St. Augustine sees in the one penny which all the workers in die vineyard uniformly receive for varying durations of work (Mt. 20:1-16), an indication of eternal life, which is for all similarly of eternal duration; in the many mansions in the house of die Father (John 14:2) he sees a symbol of the various grades of remuneration in the one eternal life. To the objection that inequality gives rise to envy, he answers: “There will be no envy on account of the unequal glory, since the unity of love will reign in all” (In Ioan. tr. 67, 2). Cf. St. Jerome, Adv. Iovin. II 18-34. S. Th. I 12, 6.”

P.S. - we have the classic “Dante’s Inferno” for giving us the “visual” of the different “levels” that a soul will pass after death. Until his work was published, man did not really have a “picture” of what heaven, purgatory, and hell might look like. Dante accomplished that (for good or bad).

 

[adrift]

There was no punctuation in the inspired original Greek which Luke wrote. Punctuation was added into the Greek centuries later.

The Companion Bible, 1990, Appendix 173, p. 192 says that Jesus’ reply, “Assuredly I say to you today” was a “common Hebrew idiom… which is constantly used for very solemn emphasis.”

The wordage may be unnecessary to you, but it may not be to other people of different culture.

The Companion Bible, 1990, Appendix 173, p. 192 says that Jesus’ reply, “Assuredly I say to you today” was a “common Hebrew idiom… which is constantly used for very solemn emphasis.”

The wordage may be unnecessary to you, but it may not be to other people of different culture.

The Companion Bible was written by E. W. Bullinger who died in 1913. The first thing to be noted is that he does not give any source to this claim. What is his claim? Not as you say that “Assuredly I say to you today” is an idiom. What he says is that “this day” is a solemn idiom used to emphasis a point. He does not document a source for this idiom other than quoting other scripture that it is used. Indeed, this may be used as an emphasis but that does not mean that it wasn’t meant as being today. All of his examples points to meaning today. Also to be pointed out is that Jesus often used the phrase “Verily (Amen) I say to you” the only time He uses it with today is with the thief. For this reason, the argument that it is only an idiom for emphasis fails.