Today's philosophy

[Portofino]

We should work with that and draw them to the source of all goodness. You can attract people better with honey than with vinegar (I think St. Teresa of Jesus said that).

For what it is worth (as a non-Catholic), I commend you for that sentiment.

So much of the arguments I read seem to be, “if you don’t believe in God, you have no right to your morality of compassion. Believe in (my) God, or else give your morality up.” That kind of ultimatum is potentially reckless – the intended target can indeed end up neither believing in God, nor in valuing compassion – and arguably not the best way to persuade. It also involve the Christian apologist ironically playing devil’s advocate on behalf of an extremely cynical, anti-social (sociopathic?) form of unbeliever, who basically says, “without God, I have no respect for human life.” The non-believer to whom this is addressed comes away feeling disturbed – “is the only thing keeping the religious from sadism and sociopathy the fear of God?”–but does not tend to feel convinced.

 

[Pugsly]

For what it is worth (as a non-Catholic), I commend you for that sentiment.

So much of the arguments I read seem to be, “if you don’t believe in God, you have no right to your morality of compassion. Believe in (my) God, or else give your morality up.” That kind of ultimatum is potentially reckless – the intended target can indeed end up neither believing in God, nor in valuing compassion – and arguably not the best way to persuade. It also involve the Christian apologist ironically playing devil’s advocate on behalf of an extremely cynical, anti-social (sociopathic?) form of unbeliever, who basically says, “without God, I have no respect for human life.” The non-believer to whom this is addressed comes away feeling disturbed – “is the only thing keeping the religious from sadism and sociopathy the fear of God?”–but does not tend to feel convinced.

Dear Portofino…I was not giving an “ultimatum” by outlining an old philosophy of Hobbes, Spinoza and Machiavelli…that modern Christians (like Linnvinc above) facilitate. I was merely showing the end results…which has both a logical and historical basis.
If it is “disturbing” to see where Leviathan leads you into a “kingdom of darkness” then so be it.

 

[Pugsly]

“… the “right” is just as wrong in its Enlightenment-based calling for rights that lead to discounting the rights of the weaker among us, and to the harming and even killing them.”…
…tea-partiers and the totalitarians… of the fake-Christians, who say Jesus, Jesus, thumping on the Bible, but do not follow the Gospel, and even going against Christ’s teachings in many subtle and not-so-subtle ways…"

What a terrible opinion of Conservatives you must have…we are for harming the weak…even killing them.

I am on the Right…a member of the Tea Party. We love the Biblical anawim…ie…“the poor, the widow, the orphan and the stranger in your land”…We believe in social safety nets. We believe in sound economic principles. I love God first…then my neighbor in this great land of America. We are strongly for reasonable conservation of the economic AND environmental aspects of American health and influence.

We are thoroughly opposed to the idea, put forth by the first murderer…Cain,…that we are “keepers” of our brothers. Freedom and Safety nets…yes.

Government is a necessary tool…that needs to be secular. The smaller the tool to do the job…the BETTER. But, today’s Christians have drifted into the idea that the Government will bring a kingdom of heaven to Earth…“I believe we can build the kingdom of heaven right here on Earth” Barack Obama

 

[lynnvinc]

"… the “right” is just as wrong in its Enlightenment-based calling for rights that lead to discounting the rights of the weaker among us, and to the harming and even killing them."…
…tea-partiers and the totalitarians… of the fake-Christians, who say Jesus, Jesus, thumping on the Bible, but do not follow the Gospel, and even going against Christ’s teachings in many subtle and not-so-subtle ways…"

What a terrible opinion of Conservatives you must have…we are for harming the weak…even killing them.

I am on the Right…a member of the Tea Party. We love the Biblical anawim…ie…“the poor, the widow, the orphan and the stranger in your land”…We believe in social safety nets. We believe in sound economic principles. I love God first…then my neighbor in this great land of America. We are strongly for reasonable conservation of the economic AND environmental aspects of American health and influence.

We are thoroughly opposed to the idea, put forth by the first murderer…Cain,…that we are “keepers” of our brothers. Freedom and Safety nets…yes.

Government is a necessary tool…that needs to be secular. The smaller the tool to do the job…the BETTER. But, today’s Christians have drifted into the idea that the Government will bring a kingdom of heaven to Earth…“I believe we can build the kingdom of heaven right here on Earth” Barack Obama

We are supposed to build the kingdom of God on earth – by following Jesus and applying his principles and instructions.

I do understand the tea partiers have some legitimate issues, as do those on the left. I myself thought it would be good to have a “green tea party” that would end subsidies and tax-breaks to the fossil fuel industries. If we are going to spend our common money, let it be to enhance life, not harm life.

There has been a growing socio-political complexity, along with increasing centralized authority, for 1000s of years – band → tribe → chiefdom → state → super-state → super-duper-state → super-duper-whooper-state.

Democracy was developed as a corrective of this trend, and there is much to applaud Enlightenment thinking for (and I think the Church was a bit behind the times on certain issues for some time).

However, it is hard to have a democracy without a well-informed citizenry. Considering that the multinational corps that are beyond the reach of single country laws fund and basically own government, schools and colleges, the military, and the media, we are in serious trouble. Both the right and the left are blinded and sailing without rudders.

We should pray earnestly for understanding and wisdom, and listen to the Church and follow its teachings. If you sincerely read the encyclicals, they come across more to the “left” than to the “right” on many issues. They seem very prudent and wise in their directives - subsidiarity AND solidarity. And they really exactly align with my thinking, so I have no problem at all with anything the Church magesterium teaches – I am a conservative on personal issues (chastity, prudence, etc), and a liberal on social issues of caring for the poor, etc…even if I don’t follow them in a perfect way.

One thing, the holy fathers are really smart and well-educated; they understand the evils of our global economy that harms the poorest of the poor and makes the rich extremely rich – the use of cheating, robbery, force, oppression, and violence by the rich to dominate the poor. They understand that, and we too should strive to understand it. BXVI has in fact called for an UN that has more “teeth” to mitigate the harms of global capitalism.

“In the face of the unrelenting growth of global interdependence, there is a strongly felt need, even in the midst of a global recession, for a reform of the United Nations Organization, and likewise of economic institutions and international finance, so that the concept of the family of nations can acquire real teeth.” BXVI, Caritas et Veritate

Marx and socially liberal scholars (whether atheists or believers) have something to teach us, and we should not totally discount it and throw it over, they have some very valid points. We should listen to all sides and seek the truth…as Gandhi suggested.

 

[lynnvinc]

I’m thinking if the unchurched (as well as the front-pewers) could carefully read “Caritas in Veritate” by BXVI, they will amazed at the wisdom and insight and wonderful directives. I think those on the “right” and on the “left” will be very pleased and find some wise instructions. This is a great anecdote to “today’s philosophies.”

See: vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20090629_caritas-in-veritate_en.html

I am eagerly awaiting such encyclicals by our wonderful and gracious new Pope Francis.

 

[Pugsly]

Pugsly;10649278:

We are supposed to build the kingdom of God on earth – by following Jesus and applying his principles and instructions.

I do understand the tea partiers have some legitimate issues, as do those on the left. I myself thought it would be good to have a “green tea party” that would end subsidies and tax-breaks to the fossil fuel industries. If we are going to spend our common money, let it be to enhance life, not harm life.

There has been a growing socio-political complexity, along with increasing centralized authority, for 1000s of years – band → tribe → chiefdom → state → super-state → super-duper-state → super-duper-whooper-state.

Democracy was developed as a corrective of this trend, and there is much to applaud Enlightenment thinking for (and I think the Church was a bit behind the times on certain issues for some time).

However, it is hard to have a democracy without a well-informed citizenry. Considering that the multinational corps that are beyond the reach of single country laws fund and basically own government, schools and colleges, the military, and the media, we are in serious trouble. Both the right and the left are blinded and sailing without rudders.

We should pray earnestly for understanding and wisdom, and listen to the Church and follow its teachings. If you sincerely read the encyclicals, they come across more to the “left” than to the “right” on many issues. They seem very prudent and wise in their directives - subsidiarity AND solidarity. And they really exactly align with my thinking, so I have no problem at all with anything the Church magesterium teaches – I am a conservative on personal issues (chastity, prudence, etc), and a liberal on social issues of caring for the poor, etc…even if I don’t follow them in a perfect way.

One thing, the holy fathers are really smart and well-educated; they understand the evils of our global economy that harms the poorest of the poor and makes the rich extremely rich – the use of cheating, robbery, force, oppression, and violence by the rich to dominate the poor. They understand that, and we too should strive to understand it. BXVI has in fact called for an UN that has more “teeth” to mitigate the harms of global capitalism.

“In the face of the unrelenting growth of global interdependence, there is a strongly felt need, even in the midst of a global recession, for a reform of the United Nations Organization, and likewise of economic institutions and international finance, so that the concept of the family of nations can acquire real teeth.” BXVI, Caritas et Veritate

Marx and socially liberal scholars (whether atheists or believers) have something to teach us, and we should not totally discount it and throw it over, they have some very valid points. We should listen to all sides and seek the truth…as Gandhi suggested.

**“My kingdom is not of this world”…Jesus **

Karl Marx has a great deal to teach us about how to live and think and write FOOLISHLY.

 

[lynnvinc]

lynnvinc;10649724:

**“My kingdom is not of this world”…Jesus **

Karl Marx has a great deal to teach us about how to live and think and write FOOLISHLY.
Even the Catholic Church and Holy Fathers were appalled by industrial conditions in those days that badly oppressed the poor. There were many good religious folks who saw what Marx and Engels saw and were just as concerned and upset. See Pope Leo XIII’s “RERUM NOVARUM: ENCYCLICAL ON CAPITAL AND LABOR” at vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_15051891_rerum-novarum_en.html

I remember in my college history class reading about the very awful conditions of labor – imagine no 40-hour work-week, no minimum wages, no worker safety or compensation, child labor, etc. Your family lives in a loft without sanitation or running water with 5 other families, with straw for furniture; you lose a limb in a dangerous machine, you’re fired bec you can no longer work, and you and your family are cast out on the streets to beg and die. What Marx and his friend Engels (son of a factory owner) saw were exceedingly deplorable conditions.

If we disentangle this problem from proposed solutions, then we can see that Marx did have some valid insights into the problem…except bec he wasn’t religious he didn’t understand that the problems ultimately stemmed from our fallen nature; he thought it was the rise of capitalism that had made basically good people evil, when all it did was facilitate the evil that was already in us.

As for solutions, his (communism – societal caring and sharing) were perhaps wrong and only workable in primitive societies (bands, which practice generalized reciprocity or “primitive communism”) and in small groups, like families and monasteries, where people can keep informal tabs on each other to ensure others don’t get by with slacking and mooching.

I’m thinking it is bec Marx’s father converted to Christianity (Lutheranism) that Marx even had compassion for the sorely afflicted.

As a tea partier, you might even like Marx’s ultimate ideal of a stateless society. No taxes, no gov – everyone just caring and sharing out of their own goodness. Except we all really know this is not possible due to our fallen nature.