Topics that Confuse and Divide us - Satan Loves them - My H.I.T.S. List

[JRKH]

I have noticed (and been confused by) a number of theological discussions here that strike me as absurd simply because, regardless of the validity of each sides arguments, the premise alone can have no bearing on our walk of faith.
Now understand. I am not trying to start a debate on any of these on this thread. If you wish to debate any one of these please start a new thread.
Of course if you have a comment on the general idea of these being irrelavent to our daily walk please feel free to comment - Charitably.

I refer to these topics as HITS topics, an Acronym for “Hole In The Sand”, which refers to The St. Augustine Story of trying to understand the Trinity.

My Hist’s List includes:
OSAS -
The Problem with this is that any discussion eventually breaks down to how one actually KNOWS they are saved or not.
In my daily walk I only know I must be always on my guard against falling and failing.

Justification -
Faith Alone -
“Works” Theology -
Grouped together because we always wind up arguing over the exact relationship between Faith and Works.
In our daily walk I can only know that, God expects me to, “Walk the Walk”, so to speak. The exact nature of when and how God’s Grace works is beyond our capacity to understand.

Predestination -
This one is related to OSAS, and in the same way comes down to - how do we know which side of the fence we are on.
In our daily walk we must simply be the best we can, and encourage others to join us in the walk.

Evolution -
This one really kind of entertains me to a point. We argue over whether evolution is true and weather God’s days are 24 hours or not.
I really think this is more of an issue for Protestants, especially evangelicals, because their reliance on “The Bible” is such that any chink, any literal untruth, in that book spells real toruble for their theology.
Again - How does this effect me in my daily walk? What possible difference does it make to me today, or how I live and spread the Good News of Christ?

All of these, and others that I can’t think of right now, are nothing more than tools that Satan uses to confuse and divide us. He chuckles every time he hears us arguing over these things, while Jesus weeps because He told us not to be concerned with tomorrow and just deal with the hear and now. Granted, these topics are valid discussions in an academic sense, but for the average Christian they have no bearing what-so-ever.

Anyway these are my HITS topics.
Does anyone else have additional ones?

Peace
James

 

[Trishie]

I know what you mean, James.
We have our daily lives, our prayer for others, the sacraments, our loved ones. Ordinary life doesn’t require so much argument.It obviously does for some, but life is needs, responsibilities troubles and joys. I wrote the below one time about the simplicity and ‘ordinariness in Jesus’ life
Jesus and ordinary life
Jesus, God and man, for most of Your life You lived amongst us in unobtrusive labour. Through Your witness, we are encouraged to value the mundane tasks and events that dominate our lives.

Let us not overlook the value and message of the silent gospel of Your years of ‘ordinary’ service, overshadowed as they are by the drama of those last three years. It is surely a powerful silent witness that You, God incarnate, spent thirty years apparently ‘marking time’ in ordinary activity…as helpless infant…as refugee…as child of a poor family…as village tradesman. Thus is the ordinary, unrecognised and unrecorded routine of our daily lives elevated and sanctified while yet in obscurity, when it is lived in accordance with divine will.

In response to Your quiet example and Your inspired Word, we desire grace to live and work lovingly amongst others, obeying Your will as expressed in our vocations and our individual natures. The brief account of Your infancy and childhood emphasises this lesson. Although at twelve You revealed Your unique nature, You returned to humble daily activity.

We observe Your favoured human Mother, in her option to reject or cooperate with divine will for her life. Her acceptance carried with it some treasured secrets, but largely the ordinary life of human motherhood and home duties commonplace in the lives of multitudes of women throughout the centuries. Surely, her faith and hope were frequently tested in remembrance of divine promise in the face of ‘ordinary’ realities. Ultimately, however, her choice led to mental and emotional martyrdom.

Jesus, along with every human, You faced the choice to employ or misuse, the life, the gifts, and the trust reposed in You. You could embrace or refuse the alluring, deceptive temptations of the devil—gaudy and dramatic with ambition, sensuality and worldliness. Rejecting these temptations, You remained faithful to the God’s will, despite hardship, disappointment and sorrow.

Following almost thirty years of humble obscurity, You began public ministry, openly teaching and exemplifying the truths of the eternal Father, and fulfilling the covenant. Even as You took up Your divine ministry, You remained loving, obedient, wise and trusting. You accepted the realities of Your humanity, not vicariously, but fully, sacrificing this humanity in the culmination of every human deprivation and suffering. Your entire being became ‘a living wound’. [Isaiah] Following annihilation in Your humanity, You resurrected, to consummate Your defeat of sin and death for humankind.

You are witness that each person must accept divine will in the realities and actualities of our personal existences as we follow You our Way to life. Jesus, grant us to shoulder our daily cross lovingly, cheerfully and creatively, regardless of how arduous or ineffectual our lives may seem to ourselves. Grant us to bear our cross with perseverance, hope and peace, so that You may use us to open heaven to others who live within our influence. Thank You, Jesus, key of our salvation!

 

[Trishie]

James, people do need to sort out many things in their minds, but I also agree occasionally the arguments on the forums pass over to what is warned about in this scripture…I find that disturbing also.

“Have nothing to do with the pointless philosophical discussions and antagonistic beliefs of the ‘knowledge’ which is not knowledge at all; by adopting this, some have gone right away from the faith. Grace be with you.” [1 Timothy 6 20-21]

It is equally true that for some it is helpful for their faith and it is important that people who have concerns and questions should seek clarification.

Warm regards, Trishie

 

[JRKH]

James, people do need to sort out many things in their minds, but I also agree occasionally the arguments on the forums pass over to what is warned about in this scripture…I find that disturbing also.

“Have nothing to do with the pointless philosophical discussions and antagonistic beliefs of the ‘knowledge’ which is not knowledge at all; by adopting this, some have gone right away from the faith. Grace be with you.” [1 Timothy 6 20-21]

It is equally true that for some it is helpful for their faith and it is important that people who have concerns and questions should seek clarification.

Warm regards, Trishie

What you say is certainly true. When questions come up in our minds we wish to seek clarification. However, one of the questions we should ask ourselves is, “Does this Question directly effect my Salvic Walk?”. If it does not, then I say it is best left alone. It is just the sort of cunundrum/maze that Satan likes to trap us with which is precicely the kind of thing that PAul is warning Timothy about.

Peace
James

 

[Ag_not]

I do see your point JKRH - but if everyone took that approach there would be no debates and discussions here. Threads would then look like:

Once we are saved we are always saved. Says so in the Bible.

Yeah, whatever.

I do agree there is an horrific amount of duplication here, and some posters come on and make bold statements that have been covered literally thousands of times, but they bring nothing new to the discussion, and that can be tiresome.

BUT - we have an obligation to preach and to teach. And hopefully the penny may drop for some, on the 4,000th hearing

 

[Auriel]

Well, I do wonder sometimes what non christians are thinking who go to religious web sites and they see the discussions and debates take a nasty turn.

I myself have a bit of a temper so I just ignore or take a break if I feel I am about to lose it.

I think we forget about how far good manners can take one, Or should I say, how much of an impact a person can have, just by being kind.

I wish there was Youtube feature here. There is a video that may shock some and it drives the point home.

Ever watch Penn and Teller? I like Penn but he is an atheist and he mocks the bible at times.

A man gave him a bible a short time after a show. You have to hear what he said to believe it. The biggest impact? The guy was concerned for him, and kind. Penn kept repeating, “he was a really nice guy”. He seemed shocked that a Christian could be nice and kind. I understood what he meant.
**
Here is the Penn Video link, remember this is coming from an atheist:

youtube.com/watch?v=7JHS8adO3hM**

Arguing and beating up a person with theology, and using words and terminology most do not even understand, just drives people away.

Even if the other person is wrong, or we just think they are, we should try to remember, sometimes it is not what you say, but the way you say it that counts.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I have noticed (and been confused by) a number of theological discussions here that strike me as absurd simply because, regardless of the validity of each sides arguments, the premise alone can have no bearing on our walk of faith.
Now understand. I am not trying to start a debate on any of these on this thread. If you wish to debate any one of these please start a new thread.
Of course if you have a comment on the general idea of these being irrelavent to our daily walk please feel free to comment - Charitably.

I refer to these topics as HITS topics, an Acronym for “Hole In The Sand”, which refers to The St. Augustine Story of trying to understand the Trinity.

My Hist’s List includes:
OSAS -
The Problem with this is that any discussion eventually breaks down to how one actually KNOWS they are saved or not.
In my daily walk I only know I must be always on my guard against falling and failing.

Justification -
Faith Alone -
“Works” Theology -
Grouped together because we always wind up arguing over the exact relationship between Faith and Works.
In our daily walk I can only know that, God expects me to, “Walk the Walk”, so to speak. The exact nature of when and how God’s Grace works is beyond our capacity to understand.

Predestination -
This one is related to OSAS, and in the same way comes down to - how do we know which side of the fence we are on.
In our daily walk we must simply be the best we can, and encourage others to join us in the walk.

Evolution -
This one really kind of entertains me to a point. We argue over whether evolution is true and weather God’s days are 24 hours or not.
I really think this is more of an issue for Protestants, especially evangelicals, because their reliance on “The Bible” is such that any chink, any literal untruth, in that book spells real toruble for their theology.
Again - How does this effect me in my daily walk? What possible difference does it make to me today, or how I live and spread the Good News of Christ?

All of these, and others that I can’t think of right now, are nothing more than tools that Satan uses to confuse and divide us. He chuckles every time he hears us arguing over these things, while Jesus weeps because He told us not to be concerned with tomorrow and just deal with the hear and now. Granted, these topics are valid discussions in an academic sense, but for the average Christian they have no bearing what-so-ever.

Anyway these are my HITS topics.
Does anyone else have additional ones?

Peace
James

You may be interested in this:​

This is the principle of Peirce, the principle of pragmatism. Such a principle will help us on this occasion to decide, among the various attributes set down in the scholastic inventory of God’s perfections, whether some be not far less significant than others.

If, namely, we apply the principle of pragmatism to God’s metaphysical attributes, strictly so called, as distinguished from his moral attributes, I think that, even were we forced by a coercive logic to believe them, we still should have to confess them to be destitute of an intelligible significance. Take God’s aseity, for example; or his necessariness; his immateriality; his ‘simplicity’ or superiority to the kind of inner variety and succession which we find in finite beings, his indivisibility, and lack of the inner distinctions of being and activity, substance and accident, potentiality and actuality, and the rest; his repudiation of inclusion in a genus; his actualized infinity; his ‘personality,’ apart from the moral qualities which it may comport; his relations to evil being permissive and not positive; his self-sufficiency, self-love, and absolute felicity in himself:- candidly speaking, how do such qualities as these make any definite connection with our life? And if they severally call for no distinctive adaptations of our conduct, what vital difference can it possibly make to a man’s religion whether they be true or false?

For my own part, although I dislike to say aught that may grate upon tender associations, I must frankly confess that even though these attributes were faultlessly deduced, I cannot conceive of its being of the smallest consequence to us religiously that any one of them should be true…

http://www.csp.org/experience/james-varieties/james-varieties18.html#6.return

All the doctrines you mention are of great practical importance to many. Possible items for the HITS list might be some of the Mariological doctrines, & Transubstantiation; but how many Catholics will agree ? People have favourite doctrines, as is to be expected, because people have different attractions, just as in anything else. So what might seem intolerably remote from the practicalities of daily life is often no such thing.

Father F.W. Faber goes into this matter in considerable depth in “All for Jesus”. He makes very clear that all sorts of Divine attributes, etc., can be of the liveliest practical & devotional interest. If readers today fail to understand what he says, the lack is not in him.

 

[bookgirl32]

OSAS -
The Problem with this is that any discussion eventually breaks down to how one actually KNOWS they are saved or not.
In my daily walk I only know I must be always on my guard against falling and failing.

I think this becomes such a hot topic b/c it’s very comforting to think you can’t screw up your own salvation, you don’t REALLY have any responsibility. So if OSAS is wrong . . . that causes a lot of anguish for those who believe it. I think those who don’t don’t really get too worked up about it, other than the fact that it’s incorrect. Those who don’t believe in it obviously do not believe in Sola Scriptura, and it is frustrating to see the truth twisted ridiculously and then told you don’t know what you’re reading.

Justification -
Faith Alone -
“Works” Theology -
Grouped together because we always wind up arguing over the exact relationship between Faith and Works.
In our daily walk I can only know that, God expects me to, “Walk the Walk”, so to speak. The exact nature of when and how God’s Grace works is beyond our capacity to understand.

Not really, IF you believe the Church. The Church is pretty clear about how God’s grace works.

Predestination -
This one is related to OSAS, and in the same way comes down to - how do we know which side of the fence we are on.
In our daily walk we must simply be the best we can, and encourage others to join us in the walk.

Well this one’s easy. If you believe in predestination you DON’T believe in free will, so that’s a pretty big one to everyone.

Evolution -
This one really kind of entertains me to a point. We argue over whether evolution is true and weather God’s days are 24 hours or not.
I really think this is more of an issue for Protestants, especially evangelicals, because their reliance on “The Bible” is such that any chink, any literal untruth, in that book spells real toruble for their theology.

TOTALLY agree with you here!! This is exactly why they get so offended.

All of these, and others that I can’t think of right now, are nothing more than tools that Satan uses to confuse and divide us. He chuckles every time he hears us arguing over these things, while Jesus weeps because He told us not to be concerned with tomorrow and just deal with the hear and now. Granted, these topics are valid discussions in an academic sense, but for the average Christian they have no bearing what-so-ever.

I don’t think evolution does, but all the others do. If you don’t believe in OSAS, predestination, and Sola Fide, your actions – your daily walk – take on a much higher level of meaning, since your salvation is at stake.

I do, however, agree with you that Satan is behind it all.

 

[JRKH]

You may be interested in this:​

This is the principle of Peirce, the principle of pragmatism. Such a principle will help us on this occasion to decide, among the various attributes set down in the scholastic inventory of God’s perfections, whether some be not far less significant than others.

If, namely, we apply the principle of pragmatism to God’s metaphysical attributes, strictly so called, as distinguished from his moral attributes, I think that, even were we forced by a coercive logic to believe them, we still should have to confess them to be destitute of an intelligible significance. Take God’s aseity, for example; or his necessariness; his immateriality; his ‘simplicity’ or superiority to the kind of inner variety and succession which we find in finite beings, his indivisibility, and lack of the inner distinctions of being and activity, substance and accident, potentiality and actuality, and the rest; his repudiation of inclusion in a genus; his actualized infinity; his ‘personality,’ apart from the moral qualities which it may comport; his relations to evil being permissive and not positive; his self-sufficiency, self-love, and absolute felicity in himself:- candidly speaking, how do such qualities as these make any definite connection with our life? And if they severally call for no distinctive adaptations of our conduct, what vital difference can it possibly make to a man’s religion whether they be true or false?

For my own part, although I dislike to say aught that may grate upon tender associations, I must frankly confess that even though these attributes were faultlessly deduced, I cannot conceive of its being of the smallest consequence to us religiously that any one of them should be true…

http://www.csp.org/experience/james-varieties/james-varieties18.html#6.return

All the doctrines you mention are of great practical importance to many. Possible items for the HITS list might be some of the Mariological doctrines, & Transubstantiation; but how many Catholics will agree ? People have favourite doctrines, as is to be expected, because people have different attractions, just as in anything else. So what might seem intolerably remote from the practicalities of daily life is often no such thing.

Father F.W. Faber goes into this matter in considerable depth in “All for Jesus”. He makes very clear that all sorts of Divine attributes, etc., can be of the liveliest practical & devotional interest. If readers today fail to understand what he says, the lack is not in him.

I actually thought about adding the Marion doctrines AND Transsubstatiation to the list. Not because I don’t Love Our dear Mother or our Lord in the Eucharist, but simply because they are matters that we must, ultimately, accept on faith. Transsubstantiation in particular is a little like trying to understand the Trinity to me. This is why the Church, with all the centuries of learning and teaching is such a great comfort to me.

That being said, I do agree with your statement that different things interest different people. I guess that where I try to draw the line is when the conversations get down to really splitting hairs. For instance the idea of Faith and Works. So often the conversations get sort of “Chicken/egg-ish” in my view.

Thanks for the quote. I think that he really has hit the nail of what I was trying to say.

Peace
James