Torn on This Issue

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JimmytheGent

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For years I’ve been vehemently against illegal immigration. I guess you could say I’m a traditional trade unionist who opposes illegal immigration because it undermines the wages of working class Americans. However I was so enraged by right-wing radio talk show host Michael Savage and his rant against the Roman Catholic Church because of the stance of some bishops on this issue that I’ve almost completely wound up in the other camp. My mother is Mexican-American and our family immigrated here legally in 1914. My grandfather fought in WWII when he was a teenager not even old enough to vote or drink. Many of my uncles did the same. Our family is very loyal to the United States. That’s why I can’t believe what I’m hearing from some people here in the states. I heard from one saying, “they should detain every brown skinned person to determine if they’re a citizen or not”. I feel that amongst some in this country there is a factor of bigotry against Mexicans whether they be American citizens or not. I’m still struggling with the issue I just wanted to put in my two cents.
 
That is just wrong… People who are so angry speak out of fear. Fear of this country falling apart? Fear of paying more taxes? Who knows. I even feel this fear sometimes. We have to remind ourselves that these people are human beings. We have to see God in all of them.
 
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JimmytheGent:
For years I’ve been vehemently against illegal immigration. I guess you could say I’m a traditional trade unionist who opposes illegal immigration because it undermines the wages of working class Americans. However I was so enraged by right-wing radio talk show host Michael Savage and his rant against the Roman Catholic Church because of the stance of some bishops on this issue that I’ve almost completely wound up in the other camp. My mother is Mexican-American and our family immigrated here legally in 1914. My grandfather fought in WWII when he was a teenager not even old enough to vote or drink. Many of my uncles did the same. Our family is very loyal to the United States. That’s why I can’t believe what I’m hearing from some people here in the states. I heard from one saying, “they should detain every brown skinned person to determine if they’re a citizen or not”. I feel that amongst some in this country there is a factor of bigotry against Mexicans whether they be American citizens or not. I’m still struggling with the issue I just wanted to put in my two cents.
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The sad part of the issue is that so many people spouting off about illegal immigrants don’t have the first clue of what they are talking about; they know nothing of the legal issues of immigration, they know next to nothing about how many jobs would go begging were it not for immigrants - legal or otherwise - to step into the gap and do the job, and too much of the talk is simply a thinly veneered racism.

Your 2 cents worth are wlecome here.
 
We do have to see God in everyone. That is true enough. That does not mean that illegal immigration must be tolerated. If we are truly Christian, we will “see God in” (i.e. respect the human dignity of) the most savage of felons. That does not mean their crimes are to be condoned.
 
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KBarn:
We do have to see God in everyone. That is true enough. That does not mean that illegal immigration must be tolerated. If we are truly Christian, we will “see God in” (i.e. respect the human dignity of) the most savage of felons. That does not mean their crimes are to be condoned.
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If you read some of my other post you would see that I diffinitley know that (although I don’t expect you to have 🙂 ) I just feel a bit torn sometimes too. But, the law is what I hold up…

I feel too for all of our legal immigrants. When my grandpa came over here he knew nothing but German, he was 11… It also wasn’t easy being a German in this country during WWII (not that it is spoken of that often)…

My good friends Grandmother was sent here from Poland when she was 9, she was all by herself, and talk about having nothing. She came out to be with her sister who died 2 years later. She had to learn how to survive… I think a lot of us have immigration stories, that didn’t involve illegal activity, but did involve hardship.
 
I am now a citizen. I waited 11 years before I could visit my mother and siblings, because getting my papers took a lot of time (some due to red tape, the rest because of my own mistakes).

I was never illegally here. I made sure I was legal all the time. It showed simple respect for those who took me in as a guest in their “house”. I would never have entered into someone’s house uninvited, even when they had more food and I was hungry. There are very few, always extreme, cases that morally allow the breaking of just laws. I don’t see how current laws governing immigration into the country are unjust.

In doing what I did, I also showed respect for me. Over 11 years of not seeing family and friends meant a huge sacrafice. It was a price worth paying. But, most importantly, I knew I was a law-abiding person under the most trying circumstances.

Now, it seems to me people feel entitled to barge into a house that is not theirs, without permission, under cover of darkness, mainly because there’s more food in the cupboard. And when confronted after breaking in, they feel entitled to charge the homeowner and concerned neighbors with being a racist, stone-hearted, cold, and/or poor excuse of human beings.

Did I miss anything? Where was I when it became justified to support the breaking of the just laws of a country?
 
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leoyballe:
I am now a citizen. I waited 11 years before I could visit my mother and siblings, because getting my papers took a lot of time (some due to red tape, the rest because of my own mistakes).

I was never illegally here. I made sure I was legal all the time. It showed simple respect for those who took me in as a guest in their “house”. I would never have entered into someone’s house uninvited, even when they had more food and I was hungry. There are very few, always extreme, cases that morally allow the breaking of just laws. I don’t see how current laws governing immigration into the country are unjust.

In doing what I did, I also showed respect for me. Over 11 years of not seeing family and friends meant a huge sacrafice. It was a price worth paying. But, most importantly, I knew I was a law-abiding person under the most trying circumstances.

Now, it seems to me people feel entitled to barge into a house that is not theirs, without permission, under cover of darkness, mainly because there’s more food in the cupboard. And when confronted after breaking in, they feel entitled to charge the homeowner and concerned neighbors with being a racist, stone-hearted, cold, and/or poor excuse of human beings.

Did I miss anything? Where was I when it became justified to support the breaking of the just laws of a country?
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You make an excellent point.
 
I in no means condone the breaking of laws in this country. However I think that if you want to see the real culprits behind illegal immigration you must look at those at the top of the food chain in the agriculture business and in corporate America. Those who believe that the bottom line is all that matters and care neither about the immigrants nor the working class American. If those men were forced to pay expensive fines for each undocumented worker they employ and face prison time as well you would see a dramatic drop in illegal immigration to the U.S.
 
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JimmytheGent:
I in no means condone the breaking of laws in this country. However I think that if you want to see the real culprits behind illegal immigration you must look at those at the top of the food chain in the agriculture business and in corporate America. Those who believe that the bottom line is all that matters and care neither about the immigrants nor the working class American. If those men were forced to pay expensive fines for each undocumented worker they employ and face prison time as well you would see a dramatic drop in illegal immigration to the U.S.
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You have a point there. Look at who is behind the recent legislation:
  1. Trade unions … why? New members
  2. Large agriculture, meat packing, building and other trade businesses… this is why McCain and other Republicans are behind the measures.
  3. The Democratic party … why? Trade unions
When you have the power behind the Democratic and Republican parties behind legislation like this, it doesn’t matter if 70% of the population is against it or not, IMHO, it will pass.
 
Perhaps, as we are so law abiding, we should make everything totally legal, starting with returning to Mexico the part we unjustly annexed in the Mexican-American War: California, Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico and Utah.
See:historyguy.com/Mexican-American_War.html

Nah, that would be inconvenient.
 
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Viki59:
Perhaps, as we are so law abiding, we should make everything totally legal, starting with returning to Mexico the part we unjustly annexed in the Mexican-American War: California, Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico and Utah.
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My thoughts exactly. 👍 I’m sure if this was done the so-called “illegal” Mexicans would be happy to inhabit these parts and no other. Oh and you forgot Florida which the US obtained from Spain by trickery.

For those “who oppose illegal immigration because it undermines the wages of working class Americans”, the solution is to insiust thatUS authorities prevent US companies from trading with any foreign company which does not pay its workers at least as much as what US workers doing the same work receive.

It’s strange how so many people who insist on the free international flow of capital, ideas, commodities, services, and every other factor in the economic sphere, decide that the free flow of labour is somehow wrong.
 
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Viki59:
Perhaps, as we are so law abiding, we should make everything totally legal, starting with returning to Mexico the part we unjustly annexed in the Mexican-American War: California, Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico and Utah.
See:historyguy.com/Mexican-American_War.html

Nah, that would be inconvenient.
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Before or after the Mexicans give Mexico back to the Olmecs?
 
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gilliam:
Before or after the Mexicans give Mexico back to the Olmecs?
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They’ll do that when the US gives back the land they stole from the Cherokees, Iroquois, Mohawks, Sioux, etc.
 
We can go back and forth with this who has a right to be on what land forever. It doesn’t mean anything and sure doesn’t get anything accomplished. The fact of the matter is that both sides must realize they’re being played against each other by the globalist elites. These globalist elites surely don’t want the American working class to realize this because if they do they know the American working class will set aside their prejudices amongst each other and actually do something to change the system that allows these elites to hold onto power. As for the illegal immigrants here. I think they feel like they have been unfairly singled out by American nativists as the cause to many woes and are taking to the streets to show their frusteration. They too have been blinded to the fact that their enemy is not really the American nativists but the globalist elites who wish to keep them on the lowest level of American society to keep wages low. I have no doubt in my mind that if slavery was still legal they would be owned by international corporations rather than plantation owners in the South.
 
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JimmytheGent:
For years I’ve been vehemently against illegal immigration. I guess you could say I’m a traditional trade unionist who opposes illegal immigration because it undermines the wages of working class Americans. However I was so enraged by right-wing radio talk show host Michael Savage and his rant against the Roman Catholic Church because of the stance of some bishops on this issue that I’ve almost completely wound up in the other camp. My mother is Mexican-American and our family immigrated here legally in 1914. My grandfather fought in WWII when he was a teenager not even old enough to vote or drink. Many of my uncles did the same. Our family is very loyal to the United States. That’s why I can’t believe what I’m hearing from some people here in the states. I heard from one saying, “they should detain every brown skinned person to determine if they’re a citizen or not”. I feel that amongst some in this country there is a factor of bigotry against Mexicans whether they be American citizens or not. I’m still struggling with the issue I just wanted to put in my two cents.
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I hear you JimmytheGent. My family has been here since the 1700s. They were under the Spanish (Spanish Land Grant folks), then Mexican, then Republic of Texas, and now the U.S.A. I consider myself American (we say of Mexican-American decent since we were raised so close to the border). My grandfather used to say, “When they ask you when your people came to the U.S.A. you say, ‘We didn’t come to them; they came to us’.”

Any way, I have a hard time with what I’m hearing as well. I imagine the mass round ups of years gone by where anyone brown skinned was rounded up and shipped to Mexico. **AmyS ** mentioned fear, well there’s alot of fear to go both ways. I’ve never felt it before, but now I do. I fear for the safety of my children as much as for the welfare of the nation. And of course I feel for the people who are trying to improve the status of their family.

It’s not an easy topic for me either or to discuss with friends or with family for that matter. I go back and forth. It gets very emotional around here. I’ve never felt this kind of unease before.
 
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leoyballe:
I am now a citizen. I waited 11 years before I could visit my mother and siblings, because getting my papers took a lot of time (some due to red tape, the rest because of my own mistakes).

I was never illegally here. I made sure I was legal all the time. It showed simple respect for those who took me in as a guest in their “house”. I would never have entered into someone’s house uninvited, even when they had more food and I was hungry. There are very few, always extreme, cases that morally allow the breaking of just laws. I don’t see how current laws governing immigration into the country are unjust.

In doing what I did, I also showed respect for me. Over 11 years of not seeing family and friends meant a huge sacrafice. It was a price worth paying. But, most importantly, I knew I was a law-abiding person under the most trying circumstances.

Now, it seems to me people feel entitled to barge into a house that is not theirs, without permission, under cover of darkness, mainly because there’s more food in the cupboard. And when confronted after breaking in, they feel entitled to charge the homeowner and concerned neighbors with being a racist, stone-hearted, cold, and/or poor excuse of human beings.

Did I miss anything? Where was I when it became justified to support the breaking of the just laws of a country?
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You bring up another good point. What does all this say to those who became citizens by going through the legal means? Won’t they be resentful & angry too? Isn’t their anger justified?

I tell you what, this is definately a heated issue & not just in the community but in individual homes as well.
 
Seems that people get the word “immigrant” and the phrase “illegal immigrant” mixed up and have started using them interchangeably. I’ve noticed that a couple of times here.

Someone from ANY country who takes the time to fill out the papers and await their time to come into this country LEGALLY is called an immigrant. Someone from ANY country who utilizes our borders, whether Canadian or Mexico, to enter this country via illegal means is an illegal immigrant. The reason I say ANY country and either border is because people from other countries do utilize these border crossings. It’s not just Mexican vs. American. It’s any illegal immigrant, someone said this earlier who is a legal immigrant, who does NOT respect the house and breaks into it. If someone broke into your house, would you be sympathetic to the person and give them your TV, food, clothing, etc.? No, of course not. You’d call the police because what they have done is a crime.

What has made me angry in this whole debate, though, is people nowadays, no matter skin color, illegal nationality, etc., think they are OWED something when they come here illegally. You’re not owed a darn thing. I am the tax payer. I am the one whose ancestors came here legally from Ireland. I was born in this country.

Now, why can’t the bigger issue be addressed? That is the corrupt government of Mexico and other lands who mistreat their people and where only the richest survive in those countries? Fox isn’t doing a darn thing to stop his people from coming into this country. In fact, he encourages it. Why? Because he benefits from his people coming here illegally and sending their hard-earned cash BACK to Mexico instead of being spent here. He also doesn’t get asked to fix his government by any other government. I think this is a travesty.

Oh, and BTW, why don’t you ask any Mexican national what happens to people who try to cross the southern border of Mexico illegally. They get shot. They don’t welcome them into Mexico’s bosum with open arms. They get greeted with a bullet and/or prison.

The last thing that makes me angry, as well as many of my American friends who are of Mexican heritage…that’s the correct term by their standards…is the South American people who come here make really NO effort to learn English to be able to converse with people on an every day basis. That upsets not only white America but others as well. My boyfriend is American, as he said, of Mexican heritage. He gets furious when workers will only try to speak Spanish to him. He refuses. He tells them to learn English. I feel corporate America has also played into this false sense of “Well, we’ve got to accommodate everyone.” No, we don’t. If I were to go live in France, I’d be required to learn French. I KNOW if I were to go live in Mexico, I’d be a fool not to learn Spanish. Well, if you’re going to live in America where the predominant language is English, you’d be a fool not to learn English. My friends who have legal immigrant relatives from Poland, Russia, other non-English countries learned English. It was a disgrace in the beginning not to learn English. Now it seems a disgrace if we ask you to learn English.

It’s time for the companies, as someone else said, to stop placating to the illegal population by offering mortgages, etc., as well. These people know these people are illegal and then do an illegal act on top of it. Take them to jail, the corporate big wigs.

S.
 
The majority of people who live in this country are immigrants of one sort or another. You are right the issue is illegal immigration vs. legal immigration.
 
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