TOTB Study Group Part 1

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Welcome to the Theology of the Body Study Group Part One. We are going to go through JP II’s Theology of the Body. You can use the book, or you can access the General Audiences vie EWTN or the Vatican websites. As we go I will make sure to include the dates of the audiences so as to make it easier to look up.

Today we are going over the Audiences ranging from Sept. 5 - 19th, 1979.

They are titled, The Indissolubility of Marriage, Analysis of the Biblical Account of Creation, and The Second Account of Creation: The Subjective Definition of Man.

Food for Thought for Section 1)

Why did Jesus use the phrase “from the biginning?”

What is the theological significance of this?

Food for thought for Section 2)

Why do you think God calls all creation good right after creating it with the exception of Man? Why does he wait until He is done before He calls all of creation Good?

Does this account have an order to it? Why do you think yes or no?

What is histoically significant about this particular account and why do you think that is important, if you think it is?

**Food for thoguht for Section 3)
**
Does this account conflict with the first account?

What is significant in the word usage? Any significance in the words used by the Sacred Authors?

What seems to be the theme of this account of creation?

**Other Food for Thought)
**
Why do you think JP II starts with these texts and analysis?

What makes these pivotal in our understanding of the Theology of the Bible?

These are just a few questions to maybe help us get started. Please feel free to ask your own questions, I hope you do!

I intend for this to be a discussion thread. I hope that as a group we can be considerate of others and allow this to be a discussion and not an arguement. People will come from varying backgrounds both theologically and interlectually. Some better typers than others!

We’ll have to play it by ear at first, but I think we can go through 2-3 of these audiences a week, or maybe every other week. We’ll just see how it goes.

Thanks for joining us and May God bless us all!
 
It was asked if we are going to try to meet at a certain time for “live chats”. If you are interested in doing that, please just say so on you post and maybe leave a list of times that are most convienant for you. Thanks again for joining us.
 
These first addresses are the perfect opening because it starts with Jesus responding to the Pharisees test in such a way to as to eliminate their premise and draw the discussion back to “in the beginning” In terms of debate, Jesus wiped the floor with those Pharisees! but also, he was making a gentle fraternal correction that our beautiful Pope recognized is a lesson our world sorely needs.

Just as Jesus, JPII is calling us out of the “laws” (or rather, lawlessness) that our society has set up for us. What I mean is, he wants us to consider that much of what we think is true (or normal, or acceptable) in this society, in fact in God’s original plan “was not so.”
 
So to answer…

Food for thought 1) I think the theological significance of “from the beginning” is to establish a frame of reference that is wholly in accord with God’s eternal plan.
**Food for thought 2) **In the version of the Bible I use (NAB Catholic Study Bible) God creates everything except man and it says, “God saw how good it was” after each step—that strikes me as passive. Then, He pauses and creates man, gives him a purpose and says, God looked at everything…and he found it very good.” I think this indicates that “in the beginning” man was intended for a purpose—God’s crowning glory of creation. It gives mankind a great dignity that is not present in the rest of creation. As JPII notes in the 9/12 address, “God created man in his own image” which “affirms the absolute impossibility of reducing man to the world.” We’re made to be better than many of the behaviors that are widely accepted and even promoted!
**Food for thought 3)**I find the linguistic distinctions made concerning “man” (‘adam) as the being originally created—as in mankind—and the change in the word usage after He “cast a deep sleep on the man” to create woman, incredibly interesting. I was not aware that in the beginning it wasn’t actually a male God created, but rather a being neither male nor female. The narrative explains that after God put Adam to sleep to create his helper, both awakened to new beings. Neither arose as the “original” man, but both were made from that original flesh indicating equality in terms of their dignity as human beings. Genesis then explains that that is why we have marriage—to fully align ourselves to God’s original creation—the two parts join into one.

When JPII introduces man’s fall from grace, he is making a distinction between God’s original plan for His creation, and the state of affairs we find ourselves in today.
 
**Food for Thought for Section 1) **
**(**The Indissolubility of Marriage)
Why did Jesus use the phrase “from the biginning?”
Click to expand...
The pharisees phrased their premise as if divorce was possible under the “right” circumstances. Jesus completely de-railed their efforts by reminding them that in the beginning– it was clearly declared that God intends that man may not put marriage asunder.
What is the theological significance of this?
Click to expand...
  1. that the Pharisees dare not deny or go against scripture,
  2. that Jesus is speaking with Authority, and
  3. it points to the fact that the union between man and woman is of transcendent significance.
 
Food for thought for Section 2)
Why do you think God calls all creation good right after creating it with the exception of Man? Why does he wait until He is done before He calls all of creation Good?
To bring attention to the fact that even though we humans are created just as the rest of the animals, etc are-- we are distinct because of our ability to acknowledge God, because we were the only creature created in His image.

Does this account have an order to it? Why do you think yes or no? If I understand this quest. then see above and below 🙂
What is histoically significant about this particular account and why do you think that is important, if you think it is?
It holds us humans to a higher standard since we are stewards of the earth and its other creatures. But most importantly it sets the foundation for an innate respect for life, a respect based on the fact that God created us and it is Good.
 
In regards to questions 1)

I understand “from the begining” to mean that Jesus is correcting a tendency we probably all have. that is to try to make the divine human. In other words, we try to bring the divine to the human level rather than the human to the divine level. I often have tried to find some loop hole so to speak in the divine commandemnts to justify a thought or behavior. but, from the begining we did not do that, or more correctly in the beginning we didn’t do that. I think that is what JPII is telling us, he is reminding us of our original state and what we are called to be. We were born in original Justice and innocence, we forsake it, but we are called to go back to that Garden, the New Garden of Eden thanks to the New Adam and New Eve. Praise be to God!!!
 
In regards to question 2)

I think that God calls all of creation Good right after creating it excpet Man because Man has yet to be seen if it will be good. A turtle can act like nothing but a turtle. A dog a dog. But humans can be less than human. By that I mean God gave us free will. We were perfectly human in the garden. When we ate of the tree, we becaqme less than human. Any act not in accord with God is “less than human” not the popular “you are only human” phrase we hear today. The significance of this is that we are called to be perfectly human, to act and be one with God as we were in the Garden.

The order of creation is very significant. It shows that there is order and a natural way of progression in God’s design. This is where we get the idea of natrual law and is the foundation for all Moral Theology, for if there was no order we could not understand what we are to do and the consequences of those actions. Also, it brings us back to the beginning to the Way God created us and Why! That, in my opion is the importnace of the accounts of creation - not the HOW, but the WHY!!!
 
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Dismas2004:
Vincent has this link down ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2BIND.HTM
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I have enjoyed the discussion so far, butI just cannot seem to find the writings!:banghead:

I tried the EWTN site ( the above link is dead), I tried typing every possible compbination in the search engine, the Vatican site. NO LUCK!!I must be the biggest computor dunce in the whole world!:banghead:

I’m going to bed, I’ll try again tomorrow if I get a chance. (sigh)

God bless!
 
St_felicity and Dismas,

I really enjoy reading what you write…

I don’t really have much food for thought in regard to section 3;
I just really feel like I’m looking at Genesis (our creation) in a new light, and I’m loving it. 🙂

God Bless our Holy Father!

btw, I’m both geeky and sappy…

Peace.
 
shannon e:
btw, I’m both geeky and sappy…

Peace.
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Hey! ME TOO!!! 😃

My question is, where are all those other geeks and saps that said on the other thread they were going to participate? I think Dismas went to a lot of trouble here…😦
 
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st_felicity:
Hey! ME TOO!!! 😃

My question is, where are all those other geeks and saps that said on the other thread they were going to participate? I think Dismas went to a lot of trouble here…😦
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Oh, I think they will pop in after the ball gets rolling a bit-- and don’t forget, I think a lot of folks are way busy with Christmas stuff. 🙂

And yes, Dismas is doing a great job!!! :clapping:

Peace!
 
Other Food for Thought)

Why do you think JP II starts with these texts and analysis?
IMO, to show that after creation of the world before Man that God wanted to create ‘a being’ that could enjoy and love what He created. To create Man in His image would be a sign of His love. Maybe to call it a Love to love. God created Man because He already loved us before Man was created to in turn to be loved by Man.
JP II uses these texts from Genesis for the simple reason, IMO, that you can’t start anywhere BUT the beginning (Creation and the Book of Genesis).

What makes these pivotal in our understanding of the Theology of the Bible?
(Note was this a type and meant to say Theology of the Body?

These are pivotal because it sets up the whole creation of marriage and the love between
  1. God and Man
  2. Male to Female and to
  3. Christ and His Church
    all of which are different forms of relationship.
 
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Edwin1961:
Other Food for Thought)

Why do you think JP II starts with these texts and analysis?
IMO, to show that after creation of the world before Man that God wanted to create ‘a being’ that could enjoy and love what He created. To create Man in His image would be a sign of His love. Maybe to call it a Love to love. God created Man because He already loved us before Man was created to in turn to be loved by Man.

These are pivotal because it sets up the whole creation of marriage and the love between
  1. God and Man
  2. Male to Female and to
  3. Christ and His Church
    all of which are different forms of relationship.
Click to expand...
Interesting… :hmmm:

I might push it one step further-- into the Trinity:
  1. God and Man and Creation
  2. Male to Female and Children (if God’s will)
  3. Christ and Church and Holy Spirit
Peace.
 
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