Tradition?

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I won’t defend SS, it’s not relevant to the thread and I don’t adhere to it.

As to your claim that “the practice of the Church defines tradition” keep in mind that the content of tradition can’t change, and it was given to the Church en toto before the death of the last Apostle. So, what source can I look to to see which teachings are in this Tradition? It’s not the teaching of the magisterium.
For example, when the Church teaches on infant baptism, in support of it she references scripture (the little it has to offer on the subject), the Council of Trent, Canon Law, and simply and perhaps most importantly, her lived practice from as far back as her beginnings:

**1252 The practice of infant Baptism is an immemorial tradition of the Church. There is explicit testimony to this practice from the second century on, and it is quite possible that, from the beginning of the apostolic preaching, when whole “households” received baptism, infants may also have been baptized.53 **

Demanding more isn’t really much different than someone demanding a birth certificate to prove you were born.
 
For example, when the Church teaches on infant baptism, in support of it she references scripture (the little it has to offer on the subject), the Council of Trent, Canon Law, and simply and perhaps most importantly, her lived practice from as far back as her beginnings:

**1252 The practice of infant Baptism is an immemorial tradition of the Church. There is explicit testimony to this practice from the second century on, and it is quite possible that, from the beginning of the apostolic preaching, when whole “households” received baptism, infants may also have been baptized.53 **

Demanding more isn’t really much different than someone demanding a birth certificate to prove you were born.
If infant baptism is a teaching of Sacred Tradition, then it must have been taught prior to the death of the last Apostle. So, 2nd century references after the death of the last Apostle are only relevant if they show the teaching preceded the death of the last Apostle.

I doubt you’ll find any sources attesting to infant baptism prior to the death of the last Apostle besides Scripture. With so many of these alleged “Traditions”, the Catholic’s only source is Scripture.
 
If infant baptism is a teaching of Sacred Tradition, then it must have been taught prior to the death of the last Apostle. So, 2nd century references after the death of the last Apostle are only relevant if they show the teaching preceded the death of the last Apostle.

I doubt you’ll find any sources attesting to infant baptism prior to the death of the last Apostle besides Scripture. With so many of these alleged “Traditions”, the Catholic’s only source is Scripture.
Is any of you sad? Let him pray. Is he cheerful in mind? Let him sing.

But what were the songs they sung?
The only possible way you might get an idea is to track down the writings of the Early Christians - The Church Fathers.
 
If infant baptism is a teaching of Sacred Tradition, then it must have been taught prior to the death of the last Apostle. So, 2nd century references after the death of the last Apostle are only relevant if they show the teaching preceded the death of the last Apostle.

I doubt you’ll find any sources attesting to infant baptism prior to the death of the last Apostle besides Scripture. With so many of these alleged “Traditions”, the Catholic’s only source is Scripture.
It was tought by God to His people. Many things were written down and many were not. The Doctrine of Mother of God and Trinity is not in Scriptures. And many things in Scriptures that people do not understand, it is the CC that clearfies and determine what it means.

It is not only Scriptures since the Church was instructed by Christ Himself before some of the Scriptures were written down. the Church had already started before they begin writings things. As you can you, It begin with Pentecoste. then one can see that the letters written implies that the Church was already in place and St Paul and others were writing to correct the Christians througouht the world.
 
It was tought by God to His people. Many things were written down and many were not. The Doctrine of Mother of God and Trinity is not in Scriptures. And many things in Scriptures that people do not understand, it is the CC that clearfies and determine what it means.

It is not only Scriptures since the Church was instructed by Christ Himself before some of the Scriptures were written down. the Church had already started before they begin writings things. As you can you, It begin with Pentecoste. then one can see that the letters written implies that the Church was already in place and St Paul and others were writing to correct the Christians througouht the world.
hmm, this doesn’t really answer the OP either. You’re simply asserting that a number of teachings which aren’t contained in Scripture existed before the death of the last Apostle. But, from what document(s) can we infer this? You provide no suggestions, just the claim the Church somehow somewhere “has” these teachings. Where is this source? What is it?
 
hmm, this doesn’t really answer the OP either. You’re simply asserting that a number of teachings which aren’t contained in Scripture existed before the death of the last Apostle. But, from what document(s) can we infer this?
Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.* 2 Thess 2:15

You’ve made the determination that everything must be neatly recorded somewhere. God, OTOH, apparently determined otherwise. The CC, for its part, well aware of the controversy, is simply being honest in saying that, while the written historical record is sketchy, the practice of infant baptism is part of her tradition from as far back as she knows. Again, if the Church is the standard, the “pillar and foundation of truth”, there’s no problem, no need to record anything at all for that matter. And if the controversy would’ve raged back then, somewhere near the beginning of Christianity as it would in later centuries, you’d think there would’ve been some documentation on that-some evidence of a change from adult only to infant baptism.
 
Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.* 2 Thess 2:15
There are several problems with using this verse to support Sacred Tradition. The Thessalonians had in their possession the teachings given to them from Tradition. If asked which teachings belonged to Tradition they could answer. They could say, "look, Paul was here a month ago and he told us x, y and z are teachings from Tradition.’ Catholics can’t do the same. Further, you’re still citing Scripture.
You’ve made the determination that everything must be neatly recorded somewhere. God, OTOH, apparently determined otherwise.
I’m simply asking whether there is a verifiable source containing the teachings of Tradition. I’ll take your answers as a negative. When you say that the Church practiced infant baptism before the death of the last Apostle, all you can cite is Scripture.
Again, if the Church is the standard, the “pillar and foundation of truth”, there’s no problem, no need to record anything at all for that matter. And if the controversy would’ve raged back near the beginning of Christianity as it would in later centuries, you’d think there would’ve been some documentation on that-some evidence of a change from adult only to infant baptism.
It’s not like the Church is a person that is 2,000 years old, and if she wants to know whether infant baptism was practiced before the last Apostle died she just has to introspect and remember. No, the Church of 2011 has to go to historical documentation, just like everyone else. Catholics claim the Holy Spirit prevents the Church from teaching error (in certain circumstances) but the Church certainly doesn’t have “memory” beyond what we can know historically.

From the answers provided so far, all I can gather is that there is no verifiable source. The Church tells us that this or that was believed before the death of the last Apostle and there’s simply no way to falsify this claim historically, it’s believed on the magisterium’s infallibility. Note, I’m not saying this is a problem.
 
There are several problems with using this verse to support Sacred Tradition. The Thessalonians had in their possession the teachings given to them from Tradition. If asked which teachings belonged to Tradition they could answer. They could say, "look, Paul was here a month ago and he told us x, y and z are teachings from Tradition.’ Catholics can’t do the same. Further, you’re still citing Scripture.
But what we do know from scripture is that such non-scriptural traditions were taught there. And you only asked for a source supporting that notion and now even scripture, which you considered verifiable in the OP, isn’t sufficient?
It’s not like the Church is a person that is 2,000 years old, and if she wants to know whether infant baptism was practiced before the last Apostle died she just has to introspect and remember. No, the Church of 2011 has to go to historical documentation, just like everyone else.
Yes, the Church goes to historical documentation to support the practice only because some people ask. Otherwise it’s simply her practice, along with the other side, the EO, that together form the oldest historical Church. Most objective historians would probably conclude that alone is sufficient evidence.
From the answers provided so far, all I can gather is that there is no verifiable source. The Church tells us that this or that was believed before the death of the last Apostle and there’s simply no way to falsify this claim historically, it’s believed on the magisterium’s infallibility. Note, I’m not saying this is a problem.
Right, it’s kind of like my own birth. If I was told my father was present neither he nor anyone else is now around to testify to the fact that he was there, it was never recorded, and I can’t remember even though I was there.

In similar manner, the traditional concept known as the “Trinity” isn’t explicitly stated anywhere at the time of early Christianity. We don’t know that the idea of God in three persons was believed back then and it certainly wasn’t formulated in the NT. It was left to the magistereum, centuries later, to come up with the formulation after much controversy. But she maintained that this was the teaching that best fit what she had always and everywhere held to be true, and she trusted the HS to ensure she wasn’t teaching error. The point is that without an organ such as the magistereum, there would be no way to determine if anything Christianty teaches is true. We can decide that scripture is authoritative; we can decide that the Church is authoritative, or we can look for some other source.
 
hmm, this doesn’t really answer the OP either. You’re simply asserting that a number of teachings which aren’t contained in Scripture existed before the death of the last Apostle. But, from what document(s) can we infer this? You provide no suggestions, just the claim the Church somehow somewhere “has” these teachings. Where is this source? What is it?
I dont know what you are trying to accomplish here. But you can go to the Church for Sacred Tradition. she is the hold of these Traditions. you can go to Rome and find documentation written by the Church in these Tradition. whatever is not written in the Bible the Church kept documentation.

the Apostles did not write it down everything. The Church is the source where you can find these Traditions.

The Church of the Living God, the Pillar and Bullward of the Truth. You are not going to find these things on protestants gatherings.

If you continue to look at the Church from protestant religion misformed conception, you are blinding yourself to ever see the Church for what she is.
 
But what we do know from scripture is that such non-scriptural traditions were taught there. And you only asked for a source supporting that notion and now even scripture, which you considered verifiable in the OP, isn’t sufficient?
I asked for a verifiable source for the teachings of Tradition. The Scriptural verses you cited are highly controversial (don’t clearly indicate Sacred Tradition) and even if they did, they don’t give us the teachings of Tradition.
Yes, the Church goes to historical documentation to support the practice only because some people ask. Otherwise it’s simply her practice, along with the other side, the EO, that together form the oldest historical Church. Most objective historians would probably conclude that alone is sufficient evidence.
I don’t see any reason to think Christians before the death of the last Apostle believed Mary was assumed in to heaven on the basis of scant documentation 400+ years after the alleged event. I don’t want to diver the topic on to the assumption, but I want to make the point that you can’t just assume that the Church has always practiced or believed (x) simply because at some point in the Church’s history it believed or practiced (x). You have to actually demonstrate.
Right, it’s kind of like my own birth. If I was told my father was present neither he nor anyone else is now around to testify to the fact that he was there, it was never recorded, and I can’t remember even though I was there.
In similar manner, the traditional concept known as the “Trinity” isn’t explicitly stated anywhere at the time of early Christianity. We don’t know that the idea of God in three persons was believed back then and it certainly wasn’t formulated in the NT. It was left to the magistereum, centuries later, to come up with the formulation after much controversy. But she maintained that this was the teaching that best fit what she had always and everywhere held to be true, and she trusted the HS to ensure she wasn’t teaching error. The point is that without an organ such as the magistereum, there would be no way to determine if anything Christianty teaches is true. We can decide that scripture is authoritative; we can decide that the Church is authoritative, or we can look for some other source.
hmm, I think it’s demonstrably false that we need a magisterium but I’ll put that topic aside for now.

As to a source of Tradition, it seems you’re still saying there is no verifiable source. All we have is the magisterium’s claims. However, you make it a point to say the magisterium is reliable, and can be trusted because of ____. I understand you believe the magisterium is trustworthy in its declarations etc. For our purposes here, I just want to know whether there is a source of Tradition-teachings like there is a source of Scripture-teachings (the Bible).

Is there, or isn’t there?
 
I asked for a verifiable source for the teachings of Tradition. The Scriptural verses you cited are highly controversial (don’t clearly indicate Sacred Tradition) and even if they did, they don’t give us the teachings of Tradition.
In the post I responded to with that verse, you asked if there were any documents that infer that there are teachings not recorded in scripture. There are several such verses in a source you apparently consider reliable, scripture itself, such as John 21:25 and 2 John 12.
For our purposes here, I just want to know whether there is a source of Tradition-teachings like there is a source of Scripture-teachings (the Bible).

Is there, or isn’t there?
Yes, scripture teachings are just tradition that happened to be written down. Otherwise, you’re right, we can’t conclusively verify or prove many things the CC says are true just like we can’t conclusively verify or prove many things scripture claims to be true.
 
I asked for a verifiable source for the teachings of Tradition. The Scriptural verses you cited are highly controversial (don’t clearly indicate Sacred Tradition) and even if they did, they don’t give us the teachings of Tradition.
Correct me if I am wrong, but is seems that wha you are looking for is a credible written record of what constitutes Catholic Tradition written before the death of St. John in 106 AD. Right? Let me save us all some time. No such comprehensive encyclopedia exists from the 1st century. And it would be an encyclopedia. Instead, that record was written on the collective hearts of the faithful and passed down by word and action through the generations. It was also written down in time, starting with scripture, the Didache, the letter of St. Clement to the Corinthians, the creeds, the writings of the Early Church fathers, the Papal bulls, the proceedings of the church councils, etc. If you study all these sources, Catholic Tradition becomes evident. Now it is equally true that in parallel to this, there were heretical works as well. How can someone tell the difference? By asking the magesterium.
I don’t see any reason to think Christians before the death of the last Apostle believed Mary was assumed in to heaven on the basis of scant documentation 400+ years after the alleged event. I don’t want to diver the topic on to the assumption, but I want to make the point that you can’t just assume that the Church has always practiced or believed (x) simply because at some point in the Church’s history it believed or practiced (x). You have to actually demonstrate.
The reason to believe that Mary was assumed into heaven is that the church says that this is true. You either believe the Church or you don’t. Consider for a minute what the church had to gain by saying that Mary was assumed body and soul into heaven? Can you think of anything? I can’t. The only reason it says this is because it is true.
hmm, I think it’s demonstrably false that we need a magisterium but I’ll put that topic aside for now.
In fact, you words above clearly demonstate that a magesterium is needed. Otherwise. without an authoritative source, each man would be become his own, ineffective magesterium. I know thats what many people want - to be able to decide what is true on their own. but in fact,when they do this, they are only fooling themselves. Truth is eternal, it does not change because we don’t like it.
As to a source of Tradition, it seems you’re still saying there is no verifiable source. All we have is the magisterium’s claims. However, you make it a point to say the magisterium is reliable, and can be trusted because of ____. I understand you believe the magisterium is trustworthy in its declarations etc. For our purposes here, I just want to know whether there is a source of Tradition-teachings like there is a source of Scripture-teachings (the Bible).

Is there, or isn’t there?
The credibility of Tradition and the credibility of scripture are each derived from the credibility of the Catholic Magesterium which defined both. Remember, scripture wasn’t stabilized until Pope St. Damasus pronounced the Canon in 382AD. Up until that point, some churches considered St. Clement’s letter and the Didache to be scripture and others denied Hebrews, Jude, Peter 2, John 2, John 3 and Revelations. The criteria the Pope used was that what was accepted into the canon must be Apostolic in origin, suitable for liturgical and teaching purposes, and widely accepted by the churches. Clement was suitable for liturgical and teaching purposes and was widely accepted but not apostolic, so it was excluded. The didache, an apostolic catechism, was widely accepted and apostolic but not suitable for liturgical purposes. In a similar way, The magesterium defines what is and has been tradition for the Catholic Church. It is no different. In fact, Scripture is just a subset of Catholic Tradition.
 
paul_c: You keep trying to push this on to a discussion about the magisterium. While I’m happy to debate about that, I don’t want to get into that here.

From your last response I gather that we look to early Christianity (theological writings, liturgy etc.) and discern that certain beliefs and teachings were held prior to the death of the last Apostle, and some of these belong to Tradition.

This makes a lot of sense to me. I suppose the Catholic will want to further invoke development of doctrine so what we infer existed in Christianity prior to John’s death is only the seed form of what we see in later early Christianity.
 
paul_c: You keep trying to push this on to a discussion about the magisterium. While I’m happy to debate about that, I don’t want to get into that here.

From your last response I gather that we look to early Christianity (theological writings, liturgy etc.) and discern that certain beliefs and teachings were held prior to the death of the last Apostle, and some of these belong to Tradition.

This makes a lot of sense to me. I suppose the Catholic will want to further invoke development of doctrine so what we infer existed in Christianity prior to John’s death is only the seed form of what we see in later early Christianity.
From post 15…

mark-shea.com/tradition.html

*Sacred Tradition is the living and growing truth of Christ contained, not only in Scripture, but in the common teaching, common life, and common worship of the Church. *

Remember the parable of the mustard seed?
 
paul_c: You keep trying to push this on to a discussion about the magisterium. While I’m happy to debate about that, I don’t want to get into that here.
I’m sorry, but you can’t discuss Catholic Tradition without understanding the role of the magesterium as the keeper of that Tradition and arbiter of what is the TRUE faith.
From your last response I gather that we look to early Christianity (theological writings, liturgy etc.) and discern that certain beliefs and teachings were held prior to the death of the last Apostle, and some of these belong to Tradition.
Of course .
This makes a lot of sense to me. I suppose the Catholic will want to further invoke development of doctrine so what we infer existed in Christianity prior to John’s death is only the seed form of what we see in later early Christianity.
Well, it is true that certain truths have become more clearly understood with time. For instance, It wasn’t until Nicea, in 325AD that the Trinity was clearly articulated. Often these clear articulations of truth are brought about by questions of the faithful and the unfaithful as well in times of trial. Many Catholic Traditions were given careful and nuanced articulations at the Council of Trent, for instance, in response to challenges from the Protestant Reformation. These pronouncements didn’t change Tradition, eternal truths don’t change. Instead, they sought to clarify what had always been held in a way that people in the 1500s could understand and relate to. So it is with All Catholic Doctrine, right up until the present day. Sometimes there are new realities to which the truth must be applied. For instance, the availability of Artificial Birth Control. It is the Magesterium’s role to show how the universal truths taught by Christ applied to this new situation.
 
Well I think this thread has been answered: the magisterium declares that a belief or practice was held or performed by the Church before the death of the last Apostle. Our sources for Tradition are then those historical recordings of Christian belief & practice which allow us to infer the positions of the Church in the earliest generations.

I’m probably going to start a new thread about whether such an idea works in favor of Catholic teachings said to derive from Tradition.
 
Perplexity, there is 2000 years worth of European and middle-east history behind the doctrines of the Church. They used every source they had, right from the beginning. Spoken tradition, written tradition, art, history, customs etc. Its not like the Church was founded yesterday and tries to piece together a theology which may be wrong. The Church was always there from the very beginning… and on this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of Hades etc. It is as unnecessary as it is impossible to reinvent the wheel or reinvent the Church from scratch.
 
Perplexity, there is 2000 years worth of European and middle-east history behind the doctrines of the Church. They used every source they had, right from the beginning. Spoken tradition, written tradition, art, history, customs etc. Its not like the Church was founded yesterday and tries to piece together a theology which may be wrong. The Church was always there from the very beginning… and on this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of Hades etc. It is as unnecessary as it is impossible to reinvent the wheel or reinvent the Church from scratch.
I understand the Catholic position.
 
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