Traditions

[ignatius777]

Hey ignatius,

Interesting thread!

For me, this verse is not a problem for me. Paul traveled around and shared the Gospel with many. He would do so by face-to-face or by letter. “Word of mouth” doesn’t have to mean only Tradition as you may understand it. Word of mouth does not eliminated tradition either.

I believe that the by word of mouth or word is talking about Paul’s preaching and letters.

Thank you

But by saying “word of mouth” we have no textual support for what was shared by “word of mouth”. The passage leaves the impression that other things were taught but not recorded and should be remembered. I don’t think its unreasonable to assume that the entirety of what Jesus intended to teach us in found only in scripture. In John’s gospel we read
“25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.”

These other things must be worthy of our attention and clearly people knew about them

 

[aidanbradypop]

Thank you

But by saying “word of mouth” we have no textual support for what was shared by “word of mouth”. The passage leaves the impression that other things were taught but not recorded and should be remembered. I don’t think its unreasonable to assume that the entirety of what Jesus intended to teach us in found only in scripture. In John’s gospel we read
“25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.”

These other things must be worthy of our attention and clearly people knew about them

I’m sure no library could contain 1/8 of the information.

True about no textual record, but when I share Jesus Christ with a non believer, the pen is absent from the paper. We have the letters of Paul because he was not with certain peoples when he composed them. When in their presence, a letter was not needed. I’m sure that his message did not altar much from preaching in Corinth and writing to the Church there. Now those Corinthians sure did change. Lol

 

[benburkhart]

I just wanted to say for the record that a sentiment was expressed earlier in this thread that is rampant in evangelicalism, namely, the idea that religion is bad, that Jesus did away with religion, and that all we need is Jesus, not religion.

I have heard this many times, and usually what it ends up being is a false dichotomy between religion and Jesus, as if the two were contradictory. But this can only be accurately discerned if those who say this first define what “religion” is. Do they mean simply ritual? Do they mean man-made traditions that cannot be found in the Bible? Or perhaps something else? The “no religion, just Jesus” idea is thrown around a lot, but the term “religion” is rarely, if ever, defined when this happens.

The Bible never says that Jesus did away with religion. It says He fulfilled the religion of the OT, i.e., the Law. In fact, the epistle of James explicitly uses the word “religion” in a positive way:

“Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.” (James 1:27)

This may sound harsh, but I have to say it: Although the idea of religion vs. Jesus preaches well and sounds very pious, it is not in the Bible. It is a man-made idea.

Remaining unstained by the world. And who has done this? Only one. And He is our only hope!

Perhaps more and more people are left without any good foundational teaching in their lives because the Catholic Church, and Protestant Churches, and sinful man has failed historically to articulate the foundational tenets of Christ’s Gospel, in favor of arguing secondary traditions that turn people cold on religion in conflict.

More young Americans today have no connection to the Church than at any other time in our history. Murder is called a righteous choice, marriage is being re-defined in society, and divorce is the easy road. That is a failure all Christians in America can collectively shoulder. Something we have done in the past couple generations is not working!

For those of us who have been harmed, persecuted, or abused by others on the basis of religion… for those who cannot accept the purity claims of the Institutional Church based on mishandling of controversy, or admitted historical teaching mistakes, or present-day scandal, I am completely confident Christ’s perfect Love and salvation remains for us outside of institutional religion. I mean, in my own family and close community, I see lives completely shattered, destroyed and ruined, to the point of death and utter despair over religion-- Catholic and Protestant alike. I see people turned away from actual truth we would all agree upon because of a religious person’s condemnation and inability to instruct correctively.

On the contrary, I see lives restored, miraculously, by Christ alone, and in the face of controversy, on both sides, and outside of the Institutions. That matters! Christ does not NEED an institution of men to accomplish His will in our lives.

 

[Koineman]

Remaining unstained by the world. And who has done this? Only one. And He is our only hope!

But the text also addresses other things: “visit orphans and widows in their distress.” And he also, in the immediate context, exhorts believers to walk in obedience to the law! James was thus speaking positively of religion. There is nothing in that text to show that James meant to address our inability in any way. I’m sorry, but I think you are writing off the inspired text by reading something into it that the author never intended.

Perhaps more and more people are left without any good foundational teaching in their lives because the Catholic Church, and Protestant Churches, and sinful man has failed historically to articulate the foundational tenets of Christ’s Gospel, in favor of arguing secondary traditions that turn people cold on religion in conflict.

Traditions haven’t turned me cold on religion (if I understand you right), and they haven’t turned a lot of people I know that way, either.

More young Americans today have no connection to the Church than at any other time in our history. Murder is called a righteous choice, marriage is being re-defined in society, and divorce is the easy road. That is a failure all Christians in America can collectively shoulder. Something we have done in the past couple generations is not working!

Or perhaps it’s the same reason why people have always sinned: our fallen nature. Have you considered that to be a possibility?

For those of us who have been harmed, persecuted, or abused by others on the basis of religion… for those who cannot accept the purity claims of the Institutional Church based on mishandling of controversy, or admitted historical teaching mistakes, or present-day scandal, I am completely confident Christ’s perfect Love and salvation remains for us outside of institutional religion. I mean, in my own family and close community, I see lives completely shattered, destroyed and ruined, to the point of death and utter despair over religion-- Catholic and Protestant alike. I see people turned away from actual truth we would all agree upon because of a religious person’s condemnation and inability to instruct correctively.

Isn’t that the fault of sin, though, rather than religion? I think you’re laying the blame at the wrong door.

If something is abused or used wrongly, does that automatically make it wrong? That seems to be the way you’re thinking.

On the contrary, I see lives restored, miraculously, by Christ alone, and in the face of controversy, on both sides, and outside of the Institutions.

Perhaps. But just because it happens outside the “Institutions” does not necessarily mean it cannot happen inside the institutions, too. I’m sure there are plenty of people out there who could share testimonies about how the institutional church has helped them in great ways.

That matters! Christ does not NEED an institution of men to accomplish His will in our lives.

What exactly do you mean by “institution of men”? Are you referring to hierarchical organizations, or maybe something else? or man-made institutions?

 

[benburkhart]

He used metaphors a lot, but not all the time. For example, as the Last Supper, He said “This is my body” and “This is my blood,” and there is no reason to suppose he was speaking metaphorically. He was alone with his disciples and not speaking in a parable.

If we say that Christ is speaking metaphorically in a given instance, we need to be able to show from the text itself that such is the case.

Incidentally, are you aware that your symbolic view is the result of a tradition started by Zwingli and was not held by the church at all for centuries upon centuries? That should give you good reason to reconsider your view.

Well, maybe you are correct. “Early church” has a lot of different meanings.

So? Can’t Jesus, being God, be outside of time and space?

Absolutely. He could even be outside of your church or mine. Being all-powerful and all-knowing, with all authority over everything, He probably can save whomever He chooses, whenever He chooses.

I agree that Christians should do this often, but I think Christ’s command was “as often as you do this,” not “do this often.”

Good catch. You are correct.

If He is speaking literally in those passages, then He can be taken to mean that: It’s His blood for the forgiveness of sins.

Perhaps. Or perhaps it is bread and wine in solemn remembrance as Paul calls it.

Sorry, I think this is not sound reasoning. A single exception does not disprove the norm. I might save a person from drowning, but that does not mean people should avoid having lifeguards at swimming pools.

But an “exception” raises the question, though, in my mind. Christ can do anything He wishes. Why might one claim He would not save me outside of the Catholic Church? Or outside of the Baptist church? Does Christ consider me less worthy of His salvation? I don’t think so. Why would any church claim anything close to that?

He actually never said “not flesh and blood.”

You are correct. He did say in Spirit and Truth, though. I was reading too much into the text.

Closed communion is highly advisable, given Paul’s warnings in 1 Cor. 11.

Communion is not to be wielded as a division of Christ’s people. Too often, that is the case. At least this has been my experience.

According to your position, he must have come to institute a ritual, since you say that the bread and wine are only symbols and that it should be done often. If those things don’t qualify as ritual, I don’t know what does.

I think I was explicit in saying I don’t believe He came to institute a ritual, but to be the Lamb in perfect, final atonement for our sins. That’s my belief.

God Bless

 

[Koineman]

I think I was explicit in saying I don’t believe He came to institute a ritual, but to be the Lamb in perfect, final atonement for our sins. That’s my belief.

You say you don’t believe that, but the problem is that it contradicts what you said earlier about the Lord’s Supper being only symbolic and repetitive. That qualifies as ritual. And it’s something that Christ instituted.

 

[Denise1957]

I think I was explicit in saying I don’t believe He came to institute a ritual, but to be the Lamb in perfect, final atonement for our sins. That’s my belief.

God Bless

I just wanted to make a quick comment about the above statement. I was listening the EWTN recently, and it was mentioned that the words that Jesus used during the last supper regarding the institution of Holy Eucharist were liturgical in nature according the Jewish liturgical law. I apologize that I can’t provide a reference, however, to further explain it.

Holy Communion needs the ritual of Mass around it, since the Eucharist has to be properly confected, and proper reverence and devotion need to be shown toward Holy Eucharist, since the Church believes that it truly is the body, blood, soul, and divinity of our Lord. Since this is what the Church believes, it is necessary to have a ritual in support of it. Remember, too, that it was our Lord who said that unless we eat of his body, and drink his blood, that we will not have life in us.

 

[wmscott]

I just wanted to make a quick comment about the above statement. I was listening the EWTN recently, and it was mentioned that the words that Jesus used during the last supper regarding the institution of Holy Eucharist were liturgical in nature according the Jewish liturgical law. I apologize that I can’t provide a reference, however, to further explain it.

Holy Communion needs the ritual of Mass around it, since the Eucharist has to be properly confected, and proper reverence and devotion need to be shown toward Holy Eucharist, since the Church believes that it truly is the body, blood, soul, and divinity of our Lord. Since this is what the Church believes, it is necessary to have a ritual in support of it. Remember, too, that it was our Lord who said that unless we eat of his body, and drink his blood, that we will not have life in us.

I am 99% sure you are correct. it was a Passover supper and guess who the sacrificial lamb was??? There are some knowledgeable Jewish folks here, however in the Passover supper there are four cups that are drunk from and the 4th cup is the end of the Passover. Notice that Jesus did not partake of the 4th cup until he was on the cross when they gave Him vinegar (spoiled wine) at which time the Jesus gave up his spirit and the Kingdom of God came.

 

[ignatius777]

I’m sure no library could contain 1/8 of the information.

True about no textual record, but when I share Jesus Christ with a non believer, the pen is absent from the paper. We have the letters of Paul because he was not with certain peoples when he composed them. When in their presence, a letter was not needed. I’m sure that his message did not altar much from preaching in Corinth and writing to the Church there. Now those Corinthians sure did change. Lol

Yes but there is no indication that Paul’s letters included the totality of what he taught.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Yes but there is no indication that Paul’s letters included the totality of what he taught.

this debate would be endless. Let’s wait until Monday lol

 

[ignatius777]

this debate would be endless. Let’s wait until Monday lol

As you wish. I hope you have a great weekend! God bless

 

[aidanbradypop]

As you wish. I hope you have a great weekend! God bless

Likewise! God bless and keep you!