Transubstantiation

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dshix said:
Could you clarify what you mean? There was a heresy of the Church in which they claimed that Christ was just “in” or “under” the appearances of bread or wine, and this was condemned by the Church.

Do you mean that or something else?
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To follow upon my post # 21, I found two places in the Catechism of the Catholic Church where the term " under " the species was used to explain the Real Presence.
  1. 1376 The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation."204
  2. 1390 Since Christ is sacramentally present under each of the species, communion under the species of bread alone makes it possible to receive all the fruit of Eucharistic grace. For pastoral reasons this manner of receiving communion has been legitimately established as the most common form in the Latin rite. But "the sign of communion is more complete when given under both kinds, since in that form the sign of the Eucharistic meal appears more clearly."222 This is the usual form of receiving communion in the Eastern rites.
I could cite other sources but I think this is sufficient. 👍
 
Linusthe2nd said:
If you would quote a source for what you say I would be obliged. Because both the Thomists and the Scotusts describe the Presence of Christ as being " under " the Appearances. The Appearances are real but they clearly are not bread and wine because the substances of wine and bread have been replaced by the substance of Christ. And real wine and real bread cannot exist without their substances.So the Appearances adhere in no subject. So I don’t see how you can describe Christ’s Presence except as being " under " the Appearances or as I said " the Real Presence " is " veiled " by the Appearances. Of course I this is my view only and I always bow to the clear teaching of the Church.
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Hi Linus,

First, I shall say that I wholly agree with everything you just said in the last 2 posts.

My source was a catechism training book I happened to have looked at recently, but when I stated it in my post, I posted off of what I remembered, and not the exact content.

For the sake of clarity, this book was “Mass and the Sacraments” by Fr. John Laux, M.A.

My mistake in typing was when I said under the appearances. I should have said under the substance! So, if we rephrase what I said previously:

*There was a heresy of the Church in which they claimed that Christ was just “in” or “under” the **substance *of bread or wine, and this was condemned by the Church.

THIS is now accurate. When I previously said appearances, I was wrong; yes, the Eucharist IS Christ under the *appearances *of bread and wine.

However, Christ is NOT present under the *substances *of bread and wine, which would suggest that Transubstantiation did not occur.

Hope I was clear this time. :D:D:banghead:

God Bless!
 
Linusthe2nd said:
To follow upon my post # 21, I found two places in the Catechism of the Catholic Church where the term " under " the species was used to explain the Real Presence.
  1. 1376 The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation."204
  2. 1390 Since Christ is sacramentally present under each of the species, communion under the species of bread alone makes it possible to receive all the fruit of Eucharistic grace. For pastoral reasons this manner of receiving communion has been legitimately established as the most common form in the Latin rite. But "the sign of communion is more complete when given under both kinds, since in that form the sign of the Eucharistic meal appears more clearly."222 This is the usual form of receiving communion in the Eastern rites.
I could cite other sources but I think this is sufficient. 👍
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dshix may be thinking of consubstantiation, the notion where the bread substantially remains and Christ is also somehow present in addition to(or under) the species of bread and wine rather than replacing their Substances.
 
HAHA, then as I posted in response I noticed yours was deleted, then deleted mine 😛

Comedy of errors 😛
 
Innocent III it is biblical : this IS My Body…this IS My Blood. Look it up. It is in the Bible.
 
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