Tridantine (sp?) Catholics

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bear06:
Actually, the Mass may be a valid Mass but it’s an illicit one. That said, if the priest has been laicized, it may be invalid too. Not sure on that though. Laicization is, unfortunately in my mind, rare.

If he was excommunicated, declared in schism or suspended then the Mass is completely illicit but may be valid. Of course, it’s still an all around bad idea to attend a schismatic Mass for the dangers warned of in Ecclesia Dei.
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Bear06:

I think you forgot the old doctrine, “Once a Priest, always a priest.” Remember, when someone is made a priest, God sticks and indellible stamp on their soul, and they undergo an ontological and real change. “Laicization” doesn’t and can’t undo that change.

“Laicization” is the process of releasing a priest from his vows and returning him to regular (civilian) life. But, if he were the only priest available, and a local Bishop needed someone to say Mass, the “Laicized” Priest would be perfectly able to confect a valid Sacrament.

Because, “Once a Priest, always a Priest.” It dates from the time of the Apostles.

That’s not to say that that particular 21st Century Monophysite shouldn’t cease and desist until he’s been brought back into union with the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. And, It’s not to say that he’s probably doing far more harm than good by his schism and by encouraging people to think they can continue to have Sacraments apart from the Church Christ founded.

In Christ, Michael
 
Gottle of Geer said:
## In an emergency - a car crash, say - any priest can hear confessions and absolve. Otherwise, not. This is because “the supreme law is the salvation of souls” - so the priest’s status, even if he has been unfrocked, comes second to the needs of Catholics in such circumstances.

To witness & bless marriages, priests need jurisdiction, which is also needed in ordinary circumsances, if they are to absolve validly. Without jurisdiction - which is what gives a priest the right in canon law to perform his functions within the local church for which he has been ordained a minister & into which he has been incardinated - sacraments needing it are invalid; they are not just illicit i.e., valid though unlawful - they are completely non-existent. However real the piety of Catholics who join in sacraments for which the priest has no jurisdiction may be, the sacramental acts will be sacramental only in name.

This is a simplification - not surprisingly. Hope this helps even so ##
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Michael:

That’s the distinctinction between VALIDITY and LICITIDY (Neologism alert). Because of “Once a Priest, always a Priest,” I’m pretty sure the Sacraments this Priest is confecting are valid. But, Because he is doing them as a schismatic, in deliberate schism from the Catholic Church (while claiming the Seat of Peter to be vacant or occupied by someone like Pius XIII), they aren’t Licit or Lawful. In this case, they probably aren’t all that beneficial, either, because he’s helping people to believe they can function, as Catholics, apart from the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, or that the Catholic Church is now a scattered group of communities with no real shepherd, and that the rest of us are simply deluded.

That last two so contradict our Lord’s promise that they defy logic and stretch credulity.

In Christ, Michael
 
If you could give us the name of the parish of that you’re talking about, and the diocese/archdiocese, we could find out if the parish is schismatic or not. You can also find out by going to the diocese/archdiocese website and see if the parish you’re talking about is listed there. In most diocese there is an “indult” mass for people who want to be faithful Catholics but still attend a Latin mass. Conversely, a Novus Ordo Mass (New order of the Mass), can also be said in Latin or the vernacular. At my cathedral here in Denver, our Archbishop Charles Chaput sometimes says the Novus Ordo in Latin.

Beware of the schismatic parishes… some of these schismatic parishes don’t believe that there is a pope and are sedavacantists (sp).
 
I go to the FSSP in Chaput’s diocese. He has come to our church on occasion for Confirmations, etc.
 
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mommyjo2:
I go to the FSSP in Chaput’s diocese. He has come to our church on occasion for Confirmations, etc.
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Chaput is a good man… needs to be made a cardinal!
 
no, 'cause then he wouldn’t be our bishop and who knows who we’d be stuck with
 
Traditional Ang:
Bear06:

I think you forgot the old doctrine, “Once a Priest, always a priest.” Remember, when someone is made a priest, God sticks and indellible stamp on their soul, and they undergo an ontological and real change. “Laicization” doesn’t and can’t undo that change.

“Laicization” is the process of releasing a priest from his vows and returning him to regular (civilian) life. But, if he were the only priest available, and a local Bishop needed someone to say Mass, the “Laicized” Priest would be perfectly able to confect a valid Sacrament.

Because, “Once a Priest, always a Priest.” It dates from the time of the Apostles.

That’s not to say that that particular 21st Century Monophysite shouldn’t cease and desist until he’s been brought back into union with the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. And, It’s not to say that he’s probably doing far more harm than good by his schism and by encouraging people to think they can continue to have Sacraments apart from the Church Christ founded.

In Christ, Michael
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Actually, I didn’t forget, I said I was unsure about that one. That said, I would guess that the Mass said by a laicized priest would be valid but illicit. For confession with danger of death, I am quite confident that he receives emergency faculties for that so I’m guess his situation would be the same as a schismatic, etc. priest.
 
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mommyjo2:
The state of the soul of the priest- whether in a state of sin due to schism or other actions- has no bearing on the effects of transubstantiation. An ordained priest can effect the sacrament, even without the permission of his bishop.
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That was even more clearly explained. Thanks, again, for the correction.
 
Again, hypothetically, what if a Tridantine Mass has no affiliation w/Bishop, Diocese (sp) or anything else. Additionally, what if the Priest was de-frocked for sexual misconduct and is currently being investigated for indictment?

I ask only because it scares me that my in-laws are so “devout” in their Catholic faith … they believe in and honor the Pope – they go to Church religiously, they believe in all of the Catholic Cathechism … they just prefer the “old” Catholic Latin Mass.

I’m afraid they are b eing misled.
 
First off…I am tired of seeing you mispell **Tridentine…**if you are going to bash something, at least have enough respect to learn how to spell it and understand everything about it.

Secondly…I pose the question to you…hypothectically, what if a Novus Ordo Mass has no affiliation w/ the Bishop, Diocese…and what if the Priest was de-frocked for sexual misconduct, etc???..It doesn’t matter if it is a Novus Ordo, Tridentine, Byzantine, etc…if they are not in communion with the Bishop and the Holy See, then you shouldn’t be at that Mass.

Finally…there is nothing wrong at all with any nostalgic Catholic who prefers the TLM over the Novus Ordo as long as they attend an indult. Some of the most devout Catholics I know only go to the TLM. They are also in the KofC’s and in perfect communion with the Pope and their local ordinary. Being a good, faithful, and orthodox Catholic…and attending the TLM is not mutually exclusive.

I suggest you study something before you make outlandish remarks…such as you have made in this post about Catholics, such as myself, who prefer the Pre-Conciliar Latin Mass.
God's Child:
Again, hypothetically, what if a Tridantine Mass has no affiliation w/Bishop, Diocese (sp) or anything else. Additionally, what if the Priest was de-frocked for sexual misconduct and is currently being investigated for indictment?

I ask only because it scares me that my in-laws are so “devout” in their Catholic faith … they believe in and honor the Pope – they go to Church religiously, they believe in all of the Catholic Cathechism … they just prefer the “old” Catholic Latin Mass.

I’m afraid they are b eing misled.
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First off…I am tired of seeing you mispell Tridentine…if you are going to bash something, at least have enough respect to learn how to spell it and understand everything about it.
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Secondly…I pose the question to you…hypothectically, what if a Novus Ordo Mass has no affiliation w/ the Bishop, Diocese…and what if the Priest was de-frocked for sexual misconduct, etc???..It doesn’t matter if it is a Novus Ordo, Tridentine, Byzantine, etc…if they are not in communion with the Bishop and the Holy See, then you shouldn’t be at that Mass.
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Finally…there is nothing wrong at all with any nostalgic Catholic who prefers the TLM over the Novus Ordo as long as they attend an indult. Some of the most devout Catholics I know only go to the TLM. They are also in the KofC’s and in perfect communion with the Pope and their local ordinary. Being a good, faithful, and orthodox Catholic…and attending the TLM is not mutually exclusive.
I suggest you study something before you make outlandish remarks…such as you have made in this post about Catholics, such as myself, who prefer the Pre-Conciliar Latin Mass.
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Whoa! Where did that come from? :eek: You seem to be blasting her for something she nor anyone else is doing. She’s trying to understand in what her family is involved. More than likely, her family is telling her that they’re attending a perfectly legitimate Mass/Church. More than likely they are misinformed. The priest is defrocked and the Church does not function with faculties from the local bishop. That Mass would appear to be valid but completely illicit. You might want to put them onto Sean O’s website to educate them. Attachment to the Tridentine is not a problem. They should, however, find an approved Tridentine. jloughnan.tripod.com/
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forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1180711&postcount=3

The OP is grouping all the people who prefer the Pre-Conciliar Latin Mass into one group…at least that is how I take it. Secondly, they should have enough respect to know the proper spelling for the Tridentine Mass.
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bear06:
Whoa! Where did that come from? :eek: You seem to be blasting her for something she nor anyone else is doing. She’s trying to understand in what her family is involved. More than likely, her family is telling her that they’re attending a perfectly legitimate Mass/Church. More than likely they are misinformed. The priest is defrocked and the Church does not function with faculties from the local bishop. That Mass would appear to be valid but completely illicit. You might want to put them onto Sean O’s website to educate them. Attachment to the Tridentine is not a problem. They should, however, find an approved Tridentine. jloughnan.tripod.com/
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dumspirospero said:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1180711&postcount=3

The OP is grouping all the people who prefer the Pre-Conciliar Latin Mass into one group…at least that is how I take it. Secondly, they should have enough respect to know the proper spelling for the Tridentine Mass.
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bear06:
Maybe you should read the original post again. The poster even qualified that she had a question about how to spell Tridentine for goodness sakes. Many people haven’t even heard of the Tridentine. You might want to keep this in mind. She has related what she has been told and she wants to know the scoop on it. She’s not lumping. She’s stating what she has been told and is asking for peoples’ knowledge regarding this issue. If you’re not familiar with the Tridentine, why should you be familiar with the spelling. I hardly think a misspelling is proof of intended disrespect.
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I truly did not mean offense to anyone – I thought I had expressed my belief that this particular instance was not in-line with what the Catholic Church would approve of, but rather was an isolated incident involving one Priest.

AS far as my spelling of Tridentine – give me a break!

I have tried very hard in my post to not name names – to not blame the Church for the actions of one Priest – but to simply, try to understand what the Church’s opinion would be on this subject.

I belong to a Protestant web site … and now I know how Catholics feel when they come onto our site and feel “shut down” and degraded even when they have legitimate questions.

We are ALL God’s Children,
 
Luke 6:31 And as you would that men should do to you, do you also to them in like manner.

I am calling this thread to charity and stating that if anyone cannot post with good charity towards this and all other posters that they disconnect their keyboard and not post because if I read this thread and there is any more unkind and intolerant posts here, you will have plenty of time to reconsider it.

http://bestsmileys.com/christmas1/9.gif
 
thank you michael francis for your citation of eclesiastes. i was wondering where that could be found.
from a “tridentine catholic” let me give you a little insight into our thinking.
many of those innovations imposed post 1965 were in direct conflict with the instructions and teaching we were given by the church. when, all of a sudden, one sunday we awoke to find these teaching were now considered in error, the question arises, “what errors?”
we accepted what we were taught as truth, now it must be considered otherwise.
consistancy and continuity had been the hallmark of the roman catholic church. no longer?
was the church wrong in prior centuries or what? i do wish that someone, somewhere would be able to justify these issues. to date…it has not been done. merry christmass. alih.
 
i have tried several times to post a reply without success.
thanks for the citations. they speak for themselves proving
my point. happy new year. alih.
 
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