Tridentine liturgy in english?

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Chris_McAvoy

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is it true that the tridentine liturgy is coming back into use again, in english instead of in latin?

Someone told me this today, I’d be happy if it were true but I’m not sure I believe them, even thought they claimed to be a former seminarian.
 
No. The upcoming Motu Proprio would further expand the use of the Tridentine Mass, but it would almost certainly be under the rules of the 1962 Missal. It will definitely be in Latin.
 
It is coming back. But it will be done the way it was done before Vatican 2. In traditional Latin. Why TLM is called Traditional Latin Mass. Gregorian Chant, smells and bells. Enjoy!.
 
Why is everyone so against having a tridentine liturgy in english?
 
Because you can go anywhere in the world and the Mass will be celebrated in the same language Latin. Like one priest said. We can not understand each others native tongue. But we can understand each other when we pray.
 
Nope, no vernacular (unless you mean that the new universal language of the Liturgy, whether you be in France, England, Germany or China, is to be English) will be in the “Tridentine” (more properly called the “Gregorian”) Roman Rite. The language of the Church is Latin.

When the MP is issued it will authorize the the expanded use of the 1962 Missal, rather then earlier versions or the post-1962 “transitional” Missals.
 
mgy100 said:
really? I’ve heard Gregorian Chant in English many many times.
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Yeh, probably from that same fly-by-night company that produces English versions of all Italian operas and German cantatas? 😃
 
BobP123 said:
Yeh, probably from that same fly-by-night company that produces English versions of all Italian operas and German cantatas? 😃
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For the Ordinary at least, there are several Anglican hymnals in which I’ve seen plainchant settings of one text or the other and there is also the Kyriale was translated by the AC’s. There is also a version of the Gradual (no, not the Anglican Use one)
 
The Archabbey of St. Meinrad has composed chants in english based on the tones used the Gregorian. They use these for the Proper prayers in their Masses.

However, the Traditional Mass is fully in Latin. No Traditional Catholic would bother attending one in vernacular, and few Novus Ordo Catholics would want to go either. Besides, judging by the ICEL english translations for the Novus Ordo, what can we expect in translations of the Traditional Mass?

The vernacular TLM has been tried in the 1960s. The idea didnt fly.
 
My choice would be a Latin Novus Ordo…I think that’s what will ultimately happen. I think Fr. Fessio’s offering of the Mass in the link above is beautiful.
 
As someone who is trying to be an eastern catholic I really dont understand the perspective of many latin traditionalists.

I know many people who formerly attended tridentine latin masses and came to know and love the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom in english at the Melkite Greek-Catholic Churches just as much. I believe it was because it had such an eloquent translation and the rubric and ritual were as authentic as the tridentine. Ad orientem of course.

I agree that the tridentine liturgy must not have been given a chance in english.

I can tell you that I have been to a Roman liturgy from the 700’s something pre-tridentine, I do not know the exact name. This was at a Synod of Milan Western Orthodox Church. It was in english, it had all the things one would expect of a tridentine liturgy but in a church that felt more eastern. It was a spectular experience.

I still stand firmly by the idea that in the immortal words of Fr. Constantine-Paul Belisaurius " if we fostered the Eastern Rites in America we could convert the whole country."

I can’t explain why but I do not think that the whole world should be having latin liturgies. For me it brings the feeling of a sort of cultural imperialism. It must be remembered that this is the main reason the Jesuits failed to convert China in the 16th century.
 
Chris_McAvoy said:
As someone who is trying to be an eastern catholic I really dont understand the perspective of many latin traditionalists.

I know many people who formerly attended tridentine latin masses and came to know and love the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom in english at the Melkite Greek-Catholic Churches just as much. I believe it was because it had such an eloquent translation and the rubric and ritual were as authentic as the tridentine. Ad orientem of course.

I agree that the tridentine liturgy must not have been given a chance in english.

I can tell you that I have been to a Roman liturgy from the 700’s something pre-tridentine, I do not know the exact name. This was at a Synod of Milan Western Orthodox Church. It was in english, it had all the things one would expect of a tridentine liturgy but in a church that felt more eastern. It was a spectular experience.

I still stand firmly by the idea that in the immortal words of Fr. Constantine-Paul Belisaurius " if we fostered the Eastern Rites in America we could convert the whole country."

I can’t explain why but I do not think that the whole world should be having latin liturgies. For me it brings the feeling of a sort of cultural imperialism. It must be remembered that this is the main reason the Jesuits failed to convert China in the 16th century.
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Perhaps you attending a variation of the pre-concillar Milanese Ambrosian Rite, which is supposed to be a precursor to the Gregorian/Tridentine Roman Rite.
 
The Vatican II document on the Liturgy stated that parts of the Latin Rite Mass should be translated in the vernacular, I they clearly meant what we call the TLM.

So I believe that translating parts of the TLM would be reasonable. I am thinking the collect the readings and the psalm, but that is about it.

But then the [edited by Moderator] would jump in and find a way to mess things up. So maybe this is not such a good idea. At least for the current generation.
 
rpp said:
The Vatican II document on the Liturgy stated that parts of the Latin Rite Mass should be translated in the vernacular, I they clearly meant what we call the TLM.

So I believe that translating parts of the TLM would be reasonable. I am thinking the collect the readings and the psalm, but that is about it.

But then the [edited by Moderator] would jump in and find a way to mess things up. So maybe this is not such a good idea. At least for the current generation.
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Yes, that is correct. Sacrosanctum Concilium explicitly states that in certain cases vernacular may be used for parts of the Proper Prayers. The Ordinary however, would remain in Latin. Furthermore, it was Pope Paul VI himself who said at the Council that “it is unthinkable to have the Canon of the Mass in any language but Latin”.

That being said, I am still of the opinion that full Latin is more desirable.
 
Caesar said:
Yes, that is correct. Sacrosanctum Concilium explicitly states that in certain cases vernacular may be used for parts of the Proper Prayers. The Ordinary however, would remain in Latin. Furthermore, it was Pope Paul VI himself who said at the Council that “it is unthinkable to have the Canon of the Mass in any language but Latin”.

That being said, I am still of the opinion that full Latin is more desirable.
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Yes, Latin is a beautiful language. Very rhythmic and concise.

But I think much resistance to the Tridentine Rite would vanish if some of the basic things were in the local language. I mean, how many times have we heard people whine about not wanting to learn Latin? And how many times have we heard the stories of the people saying the Rosary during Mass before the promulgation of the Novus Ordo Mass?

Sacrosanctum Concilium was correct in it’s suggestions. However, looking at the current English rendition of the Novus Ordo Prayers of Consecration, I am not terribly enthusiastic at turning the ICEL loose on the Tridentine Mass. But I would not reject it out of hand, either.

Until then, I have a missal, it has everything translated, I know what is being said and prayed.
 
rpp said:
Yes, Latin is a beautiful language. Very rhythmic and concise.

But I think much resistance to the Tridentine Rite would vanish if some of the basic things were in the local language. I mean, how many times have we heard people whine about not wanting to learn Latin? And how many times have we heard the stories of the people saying the Rosary during Mass before the promulgation of the Novus Ordo Mass?

Sacrosanctum Concilium was correct in it’s suggestions. However, looking at the current English rendition of the Novus Ordo Prayers of Consecration, I am not terribly enthusiastic at turning the ICEL loose on the Tridentine Mass. But I would not reject it out of hand, either.

Until then, I have a missal, it has everything translated, I know what is being said and prayed.
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Thats the point.
The translation could be read by the priest instead of the latin.

The ICEL whatever it is seems to be full of “nuts” that shouldnt get their hands on it…
 
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