Tridentine Mass-Negative reaction from priests?

[Dauphin]

With respect, the above may be your opinion, but it doesn’t apply to a lot of people. It doesn’t focus my heart on higher things, it simply keeps me from understanding what’s being said. There is also no definitive proof (because the use of Latin is NOT a part of the deposit of the Apotstolic faith, but came about in about 300-400 AD) that the Holy Spirit has maintained Latin as our unique liturgical language (Latin is unique in that no other religious body uses it). The competent authority of the Church allowed the expansion of the vernacular and the vernacular is perfectly capable of pointing us to the holiness of the Mass.

I hope one of the “cross germinations” of the use of both rites will be the use of the Tridentine in the vernacular.

I understand that some people don’t find Latin valuable. My point is that for others, there is great value in maintaining it in the liturgy. Latin isn’t some unfortunate reality which TLM attendees ‘tolerate’. It’s an integral and beautiful part of the liturgy which some people pooh-pooh for no good reason.

I think an english tridentine in an invitation for ‘creativity’ and abuse. It would open the floodgates to the corruption of this ancient form.

 

[ricmat]

Actually, both Pope John Paul II and Benedict XVI (Sacramentum Caritatis) mandated that the faithful know their basic prayers in Latin.

At the expense of learning their prayers in the vernacular?

I don’t think so.

 

[Caesar]

At the expense of learning their prayers in the vernacular?

I don’t think so.

When did I say that? Please, PLEASE, quote me on that.

 

[Dauphin]

At the expense of learning their prayers in the vernacular?

I don’t think so.

Learn them in both. It’s not that difficult.

 

[markadm]

Learn them in both. It’s not that difficult.

And sometimes more enriching. Given that the normative language of the Church is Latin, and that there can be issues in translations, there are situations where learning and understanding the Latin is really very edifying!

 

[JKirkLVNV]

At the expense of learning their prayers in the vernacular?

I don’t think so.

Did they mandate it, expressed as an order?

 

[ricmat]

Learn them in both. It’s not that difficult.

For you and me, maybe (although I never took Latin, and foreign language was always my worst subject).

I was talking about high school kids who don’t even know their prayers in English, or Spanish (and have little interest in doing so.) You’re going to teach them prayers in Latin?

Please return to the real world!



You are soooooo interested in your own desires (or needs as they have been called) that you seem divorced from the rest of the Church and their needs.

BTW - how about a link to this “mandate” for us all to learn prayers in Latin.

 

[ricmat]

Let me interpose something here.

I have no doubt in the sincerity of those who want a Latin Mass, Latin prayers, etc. If it increases your spirituality, and brings you closer to God, then that’s wonderful, really. Most of us have our own personal favorite devotions, prayers, disciplines, etc. by which we try to know God better, praise Him better, glorify him better.

Maybe you guys are too deep into it to see the other side, so I’ll use an unrelated example (for this post only, since it is off-topic).

In our church, there is a Divine Mercy Chaplet devotion (now, I like the Divine Mercy Chaplet, and say it myself often, so I’m not against it.) The group of 1 or perhaps 2 people who actually engage in this devotion set up a picture of the Sacred Heart at the front of the church, and play a CD of the devotion, which is very spiritual. So far, so good. What could possibly be wrong with this?

The problem is that because of demands on church availability, they set it up during weekly confession, which is only a few dozen feet from the DMC devotion. So you have dozens/hundreds of people who are waiting for confession, trying to examine their consciences or pray reverently, but can’t because of the DMC devotion going on which is very distracting.

So the result is the same as what I’m trying to describe. For the benefit of the spirituality of 1 or 2 people, dozens must sacrifice their own spirituality. And frankly, I think confession is more important than the DMC which can be done privately, and without the need for a priest.

Perhaps this example is not so close to home, and better illustrates the point I’m trying to make.

 

[ricmat]

Actually, both Pope John Paul II and Benedict XVI (Sacramentum Caritatis) mandated that the faithful know their basic prayers in Latin.

Here’s what I found. Paragraph 62 (My BOLDING):

I am thinking here particularly of celebrations at international gatherings, which nowadays are held with greater frequency. The most should be made of these occasions. In order to express more clearly the unity and universality of the Church, I wish to endorse the proposal made by the Synod of Bishops, in harmony with the directives of the Second Vatican Council, that, with the exception of the readings, the homily and the prayer of the faithful, such liturgies [New Masses] could be celebrated in Latin. Similarly, the better-known prayers of the Church’s tradition should be recited in Latin and, if possible, selections of Gregorian chant should be sung. Speaking more generally, I ask that future priests, from their time in the seminary, receive the preparation needed to understand and to celebrate Mass in Latin, and also to use Latin texts and execute Gregorian chant; nor should we forget that **the faithful can be taught to recite the more common prayers in Latin, and also to sing parts of the liturgy to Gregorian chant **(Vatican Internet Site).

It looks to me like this is not a mandate, but a suggestion which would be useful on special occasions.

Also, the underlined part sheds some light on the issue of priests not knowing Latin. Apparently, many don’t.

Perhaps I misinterpret the document, or perhaps this isn’t the document you were referring to.

 

[Dauphin]

For you and me, maybe (although I never took Latin, and foreign language was always my worst subject).

I was talking about high school kids who don’t even know their prayers in English, or Spanish (and have little interest in doing so.) You’re going to teach them prayers in Latin?

Please return to the real world!



You are soooooo interested in your own desires (or needs as they have been called) that you seem divorced from the rest of the Church and their needs.

BTW - how about a link to this “mandate” for us all to learn prayers in Latin.

I’d teach those kids Latin prayers and I’d strap them if they weren’t perfectly attentive.

The need for Latin is completely in harmony with the needs of the Church.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

I’d teach those kids Latin prayers and I’d strap them if they weren’t perfectly attentive.

The need for Latin is completely in harmony with the needs of the Church.

It’s only a few prayers. I learned the Pater Noster just from reciting it once a day for a week or so.

 

[mgrfin]

KathleenElsie:
I’ve been to about 4400 TLM in my lifetime.

The 1964 revision mandated (allowed) certain readings involving the faithful to be in the vernacular.

I’m in favor of that revision: Introit, Epistle, Graduale, Tract, Sequence, Gospel, Offertory antiphon, Communion antiphon, Gloria, Creed in the vernacular.

I favor Latin in the Canon, but I have a history and background in the Latin language, so my preference has certain prejudices.

I think the movement by the Holy See to revive the Latin Mass is particularly centered around the Canon of the Mass remaining in Latin.

I have no vote, and will go along with whatever is done.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

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You are coming across as saying what our Pope says has no value unless you agree with him 100%.

I suggest you re-read it. I didn’t say that at all. I said that I cannot see the value outside a papal Mass (or an international Mass), even though I’m trying to be obedient. AND that was the context in which the Holy Father mentioned it…international gatherings.

 

[Rabbititus]

Actually, the Holy Father has asked us to learn the common, “sung” parts in Latin and some other prayers. I’m trying to do so, though I don’t see the value of it outside a papal Mass in Rome or something.

How about any mass with people who speak multiple languages - like English and Spanish? Latin provides an opportunity to pray in one language without favoring one group or another. One thing that annoyed me about the mass at my confirmation ceremony is that almost every hymn and mass part was sung in four different languages (verse one in Spanish, verse two in Vietnamese, verse three in English, etc). Latin would have lessened the Tower-of-Babel feel of the songs and would have let everyone sing if they’d been exposed to a basic repertoir of Latin music.

I honestly don’t see why vernacular and Latin can’t coexist, with *everyone *being exposed to both.