Tridentine Roman Catholicism does not equal Historical Catholicism

[SeattleCatholic]

I had a guy on Twitter tell me that the Church Fathers did not hold Tridentine Catholic beliefs, and that Tridentine Roman Catholicism wasn’t the same as Historical Catholicism. Can someone explain what he is arguing and help me with how to respond?

Thanks!

 

[MarcoPolo]

Without hearing precisely what he is arguing, it would be conjecture to guess, no? What specifically is he claiming to be “Tridentine” that is not “Historical”? Need to see how he is using the terms by way of example.

 

[juliamajor]

I had a guy on Twitter tell me that the Church Fathers did not hold Tridentine Catholic beliefs, and that Tridentine Roman Catholicism wasn’t the same as Historical Catholicism. Can someone explain what he is arguing and help me with how to respond?

Thanks!

I think his point is that the Church Fathers predates Trent by over a thousand years. If Trent happened 1500 years after Jesus what was the tradition that held us together until Trent? And why would Tridentine tradition supplant or replace 1500 years of previous traditions?

 

[aemcpa]

I had a guy on Twitter tell me that the Church Fathers did not hold Tridentine Catholic beliefs, and that Tridentine Roman Catholicism wasn’t the same as Historical Catholicism. Can someone explain what he is arguing and help me with how to respond?

Thanks!

Not sure how you can have this discussion in 140 characters or less. But you can try “Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur. #FaithOfOurFathers”

 

[fhansen]

I had a guy on Twitter tell me that the Church Fathers did not hold Tridentine Catholic beliefs, and that Tridentine Roman Catholicism wasn’t the same as Historical Catholicism. Can someone explain what he is arguing and help me with how to respond?

Thanks!

Trent can be argued to support or oppose certain ECF’s writings, usually depending on one’s presuppositions. Original sin and justification are two issues that are sometimes controversial here. IMO Trent, like most councils, simply brought greater clarification where confusion existed.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

who wrote the “structure” or “format” for the Divine Liturgy" … aka: the Mass …?

 

[Basilios]

I had a guy on Twitter tell me that the Church Fathers did not hold Tridentine Catholic beliefs, and that Tridentine Roman Catholicism wasn’t the same as Historical Catholicism. Can someone explain what he is arguing and help me with how to respond?

Thanks!

I think he’s arguing something that is either Modernist, Orthodox, or Protestant in its origins. Either way it’s an assertion and a false one at that. Tell him to prove it. If he pulls up a quote seemingly showing that (for example) St Augustine didn’t believe in XYZ - ask him for proof that the Fathers (Latin or Greek) were infallible and to be held in the same esteem as an Ecumenical Council.

 

[Classicist]

Maybe the man was referring to liturgy. After all, the Roman Liturgy had a whole litany of "Kyrie eleison"s before Gregory I reformed it around A.D. 600. He gave us the Kyrie/Christe/Kyrie formula still used today (amongst other things). The Tridentine Mass is clearly not the “Mass of all ages”, given the numerous ancient liturgies we are aware of.

 

[Steveabrous]

I think his point is that the Church Fathers predates Trent by over a thousand years. If Trent happened 1500 years after Jesus what was the tradition that held us together until Trent? And why would Tridentine tradition supplant or replace 1500 years of previous traditions?

Trent did not supplant or replace any sacred tradition. It clearified it as all ecuminical councils do. Transubstantiation for example clearified the belief in the real presence. A belief demonstratively believed by the early fathers.

this type of argument suggests that doctrins were made up at the council and were not believed prior. That logic would lead us to believe that the trinity was not believed prior to the 1st council of Nicea. No christian would ever suggest that.

The only traditions (notice the lower case t) Trent would have made up would be disciplines. Like how the mass is to be done. But sacred tradition can not be changed only clearified.

 

[Lancer]

I had a guy on Twitter tell me that the Church Fathers did not hold Tridentine Catholic beliefs, and that Tridentine Roman Catholicism wasn’t the same as Historical Catholicism. Can someone explain what he is arguing and help me with how to respond?

Thanks!

Articles of Faith

(Greek, arthron; Latin, articulus, joint).

Certain revealed supernatural truths such as those contained in the symbol of the Apostles. The terms were not used by the Fathers or by ecclesiastical writers in the early Middle Ages. St. Bernard and Richard of St. Victor employed them, the latter applying them to truths having God for their object and so explicitly stated as to compel assent. According to St. Thomas Aquinas, the article of faith is any revealed supernatural truth which is distinct in itself from other such truths but which unites with them to form the organic whole of Christian teaching. Thus the articles of the Creed announce truths which are in themselves distinct from one another but parts of a complete summary of the truths which have been revealed to help us to gain our last end. They are for Christian theology what fundamental principles are for a science. Not every revealed truth is an article of faith, nor are theologians agreed on what constitutes any truth an article of faith. Some would limit these articles to the contents of the Apostles’ Creed. Others say that every truth defined by the Church, or in any other manner explicitly proposed for our belief, is an article of faith. De Lugo describes them as the principal or primary truths which are the basis of other revealed truths or principles.** In the Catechism of the Council of Trent **(p. 1, c. 1, q. 4), the truths of the Apostles’ Creed are called “articles” by a sort of simile frequently used by our forefathers; for as the members of the body are divided by joints (articuli) so also in the profession of faith whatever is to be believed by us distinctly and separately from anything else we properly and appositely call an article".
newadvent.org/cathen/01755d.htm

 

[TimothyH]

I had a guy on Twitter tell me that the Church Fathers did not hold Tridentine Catholic beliefs, and that Tridentine Roman Catholicism wasn’t the same as Historical Catholicism. Can someone explain what he is arguing and help me with how to respond?

Thanks!

I think his point is that the Church Fathers predates Trent by over a thousand years. If Trent happened 1500 years after Jesus **what was the tradition **that held us together until Trent? And why would Tridentine tradition supplant or replace 1500 years of previous traditions?

This thread is arguing about two different things at the same time - tradition and belief.

Belief and tradition are not the same thing.

-Tim-

 

[SeattleCatholic]

He is a Lutheran, and very anti-Catholic. I’m at work, but he did send me some links to further clarify what he views as Tridentine v Historical. The links take me to The Book of Concord and to the book, Chemnitz’s Works: Examination of the Council of Trent.I’ll have to read the links when I leave work.

When he originally posted, he was talking about Justification by Grace.

 

[aemcpa]

He is a Lutheran, and very anti-Catholic.

Trent is very anti-Lutheran, so he has a vested interest in tearing it down. Keep in mind that he may not be able to be rational on this issue.

 

[Deconi]

I had a guy on Twitter tell me that the Church Fathers did not hold Tridentine Catholic beliefs, and that Tridentine Roman Catholicism wasn’t the same as Historical Catholicism. Can someone explain what he is arguing and help me with how to respond?

Thanks!

All he has to know is that the ECFS -including Peter, Linus, Clement…Ignatius, Jerome et all (ANYONE ELSE he quotes) - all went to Mass!..in the same format refined to become what it is today…and he (presumably) doesn’t!

Every ECF was Catholic! Not ‘catholic’ but CATHOLIC!

If he denies this, as most ignoramus do, tell himto NAME one that didn’t go to Mass - which is easy to dis/prove since we know the origin point of every Christian splinter and denomination, among other things.

 

[JM3]

Maybe the man was referring to liturgy. After all, the Roman Liturgy had a whole litany of "Kyrie eleison"s before Gregory I reformed it around A.D. 600. He gave us the Kyrie/Christe/Kyrie formula still used today (amongst other things). The Tridentine Mass is clearly not the “Mass of all ages”, given the numerous ancient liturgies we are aware of.

According to St. Gregory the Great, people were upset because he had added the Kyrie Eleison to the Mass.

newadvent.org/fathers/360209012.htm

 

[juliamajor]

Trent did not supplant or replace any sacred tradition. It clearified it as all ecuminical councils do. Transubstantiation for example clearified the belief in the real presence. A belief demonstratively believed by the early fathers.

this type of argument suggests that doctrins were made up at the council and were not believed prior. That logic would lead us to believe that the trinity was not believed prior to the 1st council of Nicea. No christian would ever suggest that.

The only traditions (notice the lower case t) Trent would have made up would be disciplines. Like how the mass is to be done. But sacred tradition can not be changed only clearified./QU
I know. But what is the OP getting at? Don’t assume that someone has an agenda or is a heretic because of a question. Maybe they don’t know. Clarification is what is wanted.
I don’t believe doctrine or dogma was at the heart of the question.form of liturgy, I believe is what the majority of Catholics think of when Tridentine is mentioned. Liturgical form. Not sacred tradition. The ECF obviously did not have a Tridentine Divine liturgy since Trent happened a heck of a long time after them.what was the divine liturgy or liturgies like prior to Trent?.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

The Mass, or Liturgy, did exist since the beginning. Whether it existed in its current form is irrelevant. The words to the Mass are a discipline. There can be different forms of the Liturgy, but the Liturgy is ALWAYS the Liturgy and accomplishes exactly the same thing.

See Justin Martyrs “First Apology” for a walk through of the early Roman Liturgy.