Trinitarian and Kingdom of God questions

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When we say that the Father begat the Son, does this then mean that the Father created the Son? If this is the case and we regard the Triune God to have existed infinitely, I am finding these incompatible.
Further confusion happens for me when I see that Jesus asks for the Father to take this cup from Him essentially asking not to be crucified, then says Your will be done like we lowly sinners have been told to say, and later says why have You forsaken Me. It seems like He is not speaking with His equal/partial-self in these statements. I know I must be misinterpreting them, so I ask for perhaps an explanation from you. All parts of the Trinity being equal, why would Jesus say and do these things to His equal?
(I said the Athanasian Creed, and I think it was not a good idea; it generated so many questions for me. My thoughts are Arian in nature, so perhaps a refutation of Arianism or a punch in the face from St Nicholas is in order for me?)
The last question I have is what does Jesus mean when He says ‘The Kingdom of God?’ Is he the the KoG or is it inside us, or is it some place outside of space and time? Expand on what you know of the Kingdom of God. Thank you. Bless you if you even have a partial answer!
I’m very much struggling, so please do the charitable thing if you have some or all of the answers and help a sister in Christ 🙂

Deep theology, yeesh!
 
NurseAmelia said:
When we say that the Father begat the Son, does this then mean that the Father created the Son? If this is the case and we regard the Triune God to have existed infinitely, I am finding these incompatible.

First Amelia, you should really read your Cathchism, it contains what you must believe as a Catholic. ( Link at the bottom of this page ). Yes, I know it is boring, even the Bible is boring at times, especially after a lifetime of reading it. The Trinity is discussed in Part 1, section II, paragraph 238-260.

Next, the Father eternally begets the Son and the Holy Spirit eternally " flows " from them both. This can only be know by faith in Divine Revelation. Jesus revealed this mystery to us. One cannot reach this truth by reason or science. It is something we believe as opposed " proving " or demonstrating.
Further confusion happens for me when I see that Jesus asks for the Father to take this cup from Him essentially asking not to be crucified, then says Your will be done like we lowly sinners have been told to say, and later says why have You forsaken Me. It seems like He is not speaking with His equal/partial-self in these statements. I know I must be misinterpreting them, so I ask for perhaps an explanation from you. All parts of the Trinity being equal, why would Jesus say and do these things to His equal?
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O.K. now, get busy and start reading the Catechism and The Bible ( start with the Gospels ). Fifteen minutes a day on each or 30 minutes should enable you to get through both in a year’s time.

Linus2nd ( U.S. Navy, 2nd class, retired ).
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God himself is his kingdom.

***the kingdom of God is at hand" **(Mark 1:15)

The kingdom of God has come near to you. (Luke 10:9)

the kingdom of God is in the midst of you. (Luke 17:21)*

God’s presence among us is his kingdom. He is at hand, near to us, in our midst.

-Tim-
 
Linusthe2nd said:
First Amelia, you should really read your Cathchism, it contains what you must believe as a Catholic. ( Link at the bottom of this page ). Yes, I know it is boring, even the Bible is boring at times, especially after a lifetime of reading it. The Trinity is discussed in Part 1, section II, paragraph 238-260.

Next, the Father eternally begets the Son and the Holy Spirit eternally " flows " from them both. This can only be know by faith in Divine Revelation. Jesus revealed this mystery to us. One cannot reach this truth by reason or science. It is something we believe as opposed " proving " or demonstrating.

Remember Jesus had a human intellect and will besides his Divine intellect and will. When he speakes as he did above, he is speaking through his human nature. He wants us to know that his human nature is really stressed and suffering, just like we would. And it is also possible that at times his Divine Nature keeps silent at times so that the suffering will be even more harsh. But remember, no matter the case, Jesus’ intellect and will were totally devoted and trusting in his Father and completely committed to the Father’s will.

When you have doubts, just dismiss them like any temptation, which is just what has been happening to you. And pray for the gift of faith.

There are many ways we can truthfully speak of the Kingdom of God. Since Christ was the Second Person of the Trinity, he could truthfully tell the Jews that the K.O.G. was truly among them, since God’s Kingdom exists wherever God is and wherever he works. So yes, the K.O.G. is all around us and in us because God is all around us and works in us. But the K.O.G. is in us in a special way when we are in the state of grace and when we receive the sacraments.

Finally, just remember that the K.O.G. is wherever God is. It is just that it is veiled from us. It will be unveiled and made plain to us at the final judgment, when we will ( hopefully ) become a part of it or, perhaps we should say, when it becomes a permanent and psychologically experienced part of us.

Yes, it is very deep. Some of the last paragraph are my own thoughts but I think they reflect the reality as near as we can espress it in this life.

O.K. now, get busy and start reading the Catechism and The Bible ( start with the Gospels ). Fifteen minutes a day on each or 30 minutes should enable you to get through both in a year’s time.

Linus2nd ( U.S. Navy, 2nd class, retired ).
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Thank you so much for your thoughtful and in depth answer. As for the Catechism, mine has been missing :eek: I think I loaned it out, so I will go get another one. I have read the part as far as what to believe as a Catholic. I’m not saying I don’t believe it, I’m saying I am having a hard time wrapping my mind around it.

What does it mean that the Father eternally begets the Son? 🤷
 
It says in one of the Creeds that the Son is the Father’s only begotten son. I always assumed this referred to Jesus being born of the Virgin Mary and the Father, and that Jesus was around before that but he wasn’t on earth yet. I’d be interested to see what exactly the Son being begotten eternally means. As someone who was born into the Catholic faith I only have a fairly basic understanding compared to the people here. I know all the important stuff but when people start getting deeper I get lost.
 
randomusername said:
It says in one of the Creeds that the Son is the Father’s only begotten son. I always assumed this referred to Jesus being born of the Virgin Mary and the Father, and that Jesus was around before that but he wasn’t on earth yet. I’d be interested to see what exactly the Son being begotten eternally means. As someone who was born into the Catholic faith I only have a fairly basic understanding compared to the people here. I know all the important stuff but when people start getting deeper I get lost.
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You are correct in that Jesus did indeed exist before he was born of the Virgin Mary. That still, for me, doesn’t explain what eternally begotten means. There ARE many people on here who are very knowledgeable, you are correct, but judging by the lack of answers on this thread, I’d say you aren’t the only one who doesn’t have all the answers :D:shrug: God will lead us all on our journey, and he has always been good at providing me answers via Fr. Mitch Pacwa S.J., Peter Kreeft, and Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI 👍
 
Let me see what this might sound like to you.

The three persons are real.

The terms person and trinity are not in the Bible.

As Catholics we use this analogy.

So, I explain it to myself in many ways, one of them is this: The Father is the speaker.

The Father speaks the Word.

The Holy Spirit is from the Father and the Son, and His dwelling makes us holy or love.

Pope Benedict said that it is also negative theology in the sense that our understanding of One is not big enough to hold God.

They are all real!
 
Of course they are real. What I am asking is what does ‘THE FATHER ETERNALLY BEGETS THE SON’ mean?

Basically, can someone make this excerpt from the Athanasian Creed easier to understand? Specifically, what does it mean not to be created but begotten? And what does it mean to not be created or begotten but proceeding?
'The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.'
 
*To beget is to become the father of: to create is to make. And the difference is this. When you beget, you beget something of the same kind as yourself. A man begets human babies, a beaver begets little beavers and a bird begets eggs which turn into little birds. But when you make, you make something of a different kind from yourself. A bird makes a nest, a beaver builds a dam, a man makes a wireless set.
  • C.S Lewis. *
What you beget shares your nature. Jesus shares his Father’s nature. The Father is eternal and so the Son shares the same eternal nature. Father and son are of the same substance - consubstantial. Things you make are not the same substance. My children are “my flesh and blood”. The things I make are not my flesh and blood.

The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and Son just as children proceed from husband and wife. The fruit of a parents love is children. The fruit of the perfect love between God the Father and God the Son is the Holy Spirit.

When husband and wife make love they breathe heavy. The word spirit comes from the Latin word spiritus which means breath. The Holy Spirit is the Holy Breath of God, the “heavy breathing” (so to speak) which results from the love between God the Father and God the Son. We testify to this in the creed.

***I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life. ***

Breath gives life. The Holy Spiritus is the breath of God which gives life, proceeding from the love between God the Father and God the Son. They love each other perfectly, holding nothing back.

-Tim-
 
TimothyH said:
To beget is to become the father of: to create is to make. And the difference is this. When you beget, you beget something of the same kind as yourself. A man begets human babies, a beaver begets little beavers and a bird begets eggs which turn into little birds. But when you make, you make something of a different kind from yourself. A bird makes a nest, a beaver builds a dam, a man makes a wireless set.
  • C.S Lewis.
What you beget shares your nature. Jesus shares his Father’s nature. The Father is eternal and so the Son shares the same eternal nature. Father and son are of the same substance - consubstantial. Things you make are not the same substance. My children are “my flesh and blood”. The things I make are not my flesh and blood.

The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and Son just as children proceed from husband and wife. The fruit of a parents love is children. The fruit of the perfect love between God the Father and God the Son is the Holy Spirit.

When husband and wife make love they breathe heavy. The word spirit comes from the Latin word spiritus which means breath. The Holy Spirit is the Holy Breath of God, the “heavy breathing” (so to speak) which results from the love between God the Father and God the Son. We testify to this in the creed.

***I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life. ***

Breath gives life. The Holy Spiritus is the breath of God which gives life, proceeding from the love between God the Father and God the Son. They love each other perfectly, holding nothing back.

-Tim-
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GOD BLESS YOU TIMOTHYH, WHOEVER YOU ARE! Also, I see you have a St. Josemaría quote 🙂
 
To be clear, since the Father begot the Son, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, then only the Father is infinite in the past and future? Whereas the Son and the Holy Spirit are finite in past existence but infinite and eternal moving forward? I hope someone can make sense of this- TimothyH? If you’re out there!
 
The creed is out entire faith in tightly wound, compact form. Look to the creed.

*I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.

He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.*

Also look at the Glory Be prayer. I like the way the monks say it…

Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit
The God who is, who was, and who is to come at the end of the ages.
Amen.

God is eternal. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For ever and ever. Amen.

😉

-Tim-
 
TimothyH said:
The creed is out entire faith in tightly wound, compact form. Look to the creed.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.

He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

Also look at the Glory Be prayer. I like the way the monks say it…

Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit
The God who is, who was, and who is to come at the end of the ages.
Amen.

God is eternal. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For ever and ever. Amen.

😉

-Tim-
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I’m familiar with all of the creeds, but my trouble is always- what do the words mean? He was begotten before all ages, so does this mean that the Father begat the Son before space and time was created? I just understand begot like so and so begat his son and obviously that makes the son younger. Is this the case? Or can he not be younger because He was begotten before time and space was created?
 
NurseAmelia said:
I’m familiar with all of the creeds, but my trouble is always- what do the words mean? He was begotten before all ages, so does this mean that the Father begat the Son before space and time was created? I just understand begot like so and so begat his son and obviously that makes the son younger. Is this the case? Or can he not be younger because He was begotten before time and space was created?
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Creation means to come into existence when onr had no existence before that moment.
Eternally begotten means the Son and the Holy Spirit existed eternally with the Father, separate as to Persons but One as to essence and nature. That is as close as we can come to understanding this mystery. We will not understand this mystery any better in heaven because finite beings cannot understand the essence of eternal beings.

Linus2nd
 
We use a comparison.

The Father eternally lovingly thinks the Word.

Concerning the Kingdom of God: the Kingdom of God is entered by a transformation accomplished by God.
 
When Jesus spent his time on Earth, he would have lived by the greatest commandments, could these commandments be the greatest purpose of both God the Father and God the Son?

Jesus loves God the Father with all his heart, mind, soul and strength.
Jesus loves each and every one of us as he loves himself.

God the Father loves God the Son, with all his heart, mind, soul and strength.
The Father loves each and every one of us as he loves himself.

Could the spirit be the power of God’s love, working through these commandments?

1 Samuel 18, Jonathan became one in spirit with David, and he loved him as himself.
(Taken from the New International Bible.)

Could God the Father love us more than he loves himself?
 
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