Trinity?

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Casen:
RE: What Fidelis said…if you deny the Holy Trinity, you’re not a Christian.

Actually, the concept of the Trinity is not attacked by LDS but rather our understanding is different, for we see the three beings of the Godhead, Father, Son and Holy Ghost as three distinct beings that are ONE in purpose and hence, ONE GOD.

The same could be said of quite a few triads of gods in various ancient religions - but they remain distinct deities, because they are not one God in three Persons.​

Agreement in purpose, does not a Trinity make. The Saints in Heaven agree in purpose with God - but they cannot be or become God, because God is transcendent, eternal, uncreated, changeless, and is Spirit.

The very notion of becoming God is meaningless. ##
From the Title Page of the Book of Mormon:

And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD
(Book of Mormon | Title Page)

And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
(Book of Mormon | Preface 3 Witnesses:1)

And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end.
(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 31:21)

AND now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.
2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.
5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.

(Book of Mormon | Mosiah 15:1 - 5)

And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God.
28 Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?
29 And he answered, No.

(Book of Mormon | Alma 11:27 - 29)

And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.
(Book of Mormon | Mormon 7:7)

There are lots more examples but I think you get the point. But as I said, we believe that they are three distinct beings:

Genesis 1:1 “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness…

John 17:11 Jesus says his apostles are ONE with him just as HE is ONE with the FATHER.

John 20:17 What the heck does this mean is Jesus IS the same being as His Father??

“Beings” is too vague - it makes room for separate beings, as well as for distinct & co-equal Divine Persons subsisting in the unity of an indivisible Divine Nature. It leaves the door wide open to the heresies of Arianism and Subordinationism, among others.​

 
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Philthy:
I pulled this off the link on Unitarians-

“Unitarians hold Jesus in high regard. Generally speaking, they think of him:
Unitarians see Jesus as a major figure - for some, the central figure - in humanity’s spiritual journey. Most would, therefore, honour - but not worship - him accordingly.”…

You read this and you were confused as to whether Unitarians believe in the Trinity? I can help you. Anyone who does not acknowledge Jesus Christ as fully human AND fully divine does not believe in the Trinity. Jesus is worthy of Worship exclusively because he is God. Just think about the Nicene Creed you say every Sunday:…

Look how politically correct the Unitarian “statement” is - its attempting to sound good to just about anyone who reads it. Now compare that to the unabashed proclomation by the Catholic Church regarding Christ as eternal God who became man for our sake and who sits at the right hand of the Father for all eternity. There is no comparison between these beliefs.

Phil
Hi Phil,
Thanks for your clarification…Uumm…I do know our Creed…say it everyday… I wasn’t able to pull out of that link what you were… I knew they weren’t Trinitarian but I didn’t know where/how I came to know it. It is as you said that they don’t hold Jesus on the same level…actually some of my Unitarian friends don’t send Christmas cards… Anyway, I guess I was giving the right arguement… That’s why I’m here at Catholic Answers to better learn how to defend the Faith. God Bless
 
I always thought that the word “Unitarian” *meant *non-Trinitarian.
From the New Advent site:

“A Liberal Protestant sect which holds as it distinctive tenet the belief in a uni-personal instead of a tri-personal God. …In its general sense the name designates all disbelievers in the Trinity, whether Christian or non-Christian”

Modern U.U.s though, have evolved into something far different from even 19th C. Unitarianism. The Christadelphians mentioned above, and groups wih similar Christology like the Church of God of the Abrahamic Faith and The Way International and splinter groups, have an older form of Unitarianism similar to Socinianism.
 
Gottle of Geer said:
## The same could be said of quite a few triads of gods in various ancient religions - but they remain distinct deities, because they are not one God in three Persons.

Agreement in purpose, does not a Trinity make. The Saints in Heaven agree in purpose with God - but they cannot be or become God, because God is transcendent, eternal, uncreated, changeless, and is Spirit.

The very notion of becoming God is meaningless. ##

“Beings” is too vague - it makes room for separate beings, as well as for distinct & co-equal Divine Persons subsisting in the unity of an indivisible Divine Nature. It leaves the door wide open to the heresies of Arianism and Subordinationism, among others.​


Well said Michael! 👍 I concur! 🙂
 
Robert or Michael,
OK, help me out then. Please explain the Bible verses I quoted. I’m particularly interested in John 17:11 and John 20:17. I’m not trying to be combative; I’ve just never heard a good explanation from the standpoint of the Trinitarian doctrine.
 
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Casen:
Robert or Michael,
OK, help me out then. Please explain the Bible verses I quoted. I’m particularly interested in John 17:11 and John 20:17. I’m not trying to be combative; I’ve just never heard a good explanation from the standpoint of the Trinitarian doctrine.
Read this and see if you still have questions on how to reconcile these passages with historic Trinitarian theology:

…The key to making the reality our own lies in the distinction between person and nature. The nature anything has decides what it is—to take the example closest to us, we who possess a human nature, a union of spiritual soul and matter, are men. But nature, though it answers the question what, does not answer the question who. In every rational nature there is a mysterious something which says Ithat is the person (and this is true not only for man but for angels, and, as we have seen, for God himself). That which says I is the person, is the answer to the question who any rational being is.

There is a further distinction. Nature decides what a being can do; but the person does it. My soul and body make all sorts of actions possible to me, but I do them. Whatever is done, suffered, experienced in a rational nature is done, experienced, suffered by the person whose nature it is.

Left to ourselves, we might simply assume that each person has one nature, each nature (if it happens to be rational) has one person. We have already seen how wrong we should be if we made that assumption; it is simply one more way of treating man as the measure of all. In God there is one nature totally possessed by three distinct persons. This plurality of persons over nature is reversed in Christ our Lord, for in him the person is one, the natures are two.

Because Christ our Lord, uniquely, had two natures, he could give two answers to the question “What are you?”—for nature decides what a person is. And he had two distinct principles—sources we may say—of action. By the one nature he could do all that goes with being God—he could read the heart of man for instance, he could raise Lazarus to life; by the other he could do all that goes with being man—he could be born of a mother, could hunger and thirst, could suffer, could die.

Every single action of Christ was the action of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, and this includes every action done by him in his human nature. For natures are sources of action-, but not doers. It is always the person who does them, and in his human nature there was but one single person, and that person was God. There was no human person, for that would have made him two people, each with his own distinct nature. His human nature was complete, but it was united to a divine person, not a human person…

source: catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0312clas.asp

By the way, it should be noted that Christ has two intellects as a consequence of his two natures. One intellect is perfect/divine, the other is human, capable of gaining experiential knowledge yet also capable of being enlightened by the divine as needed.
 
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Casen:
Robert or Michael,
OK, help me out then. Please explain the Bible verses I quoted. I’m particularly interested in John 17:11 and John 20:17. I’m not trying to be combative; I’ve just never heard a good explanation from the standpoint of the Trinitarian doctrine.
John 17:11
And now I will no longer be in the world, but they are in the world, while I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are.
John 20:17
Jesus said to her, “Stop holding on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
To aid in your understanding, a little background. Pay special attention to the terms *Person * and Nature, because they are key.

Christians have believed from the beginning that when we refer to the Holy Trinity, we understand that there is one God. However, there are three Persons in this one God–Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They are three Persons, but they share one Nature, that of being God. No other entity in the universe posseses this unique Nature, only God.

Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, who posseses this divine Nature, also posseses a human nature. Thus he is fully God and fully man. Not half of one and half of the other; not sometimes one and somtimes the other, but since the Incarnation, he is fully God and fully man.

Thus the Divinity took on–assumed–our human nature. When Jesus ascended in to heaven, he did so with his assumed human nature intact. So far so good. Now to the verses in question.

When Jesus was here on earth, although he never ceased to be God, he became like us (that is, fully human) in everything but sin (Hebrews 4:15). When he prayed to the Father in this manner, he was doing so in his earthly nature. Not only this, but we see from the first verse you cited, Jesus further intimates that we will have a share in the Divine Nature of the Trinity (2 Peter 1:4). Thus, as he shared in our human nature, we can also share in God’s Nature, albiet in a lesser, relational way.

Similar points could be said about the second verse you cited. Primarily, however he is making the point that while God is indeed our Father and our God, it is different in a qualitative way from Jesus; relationship with him (“My Father, *your * Father; my God, your God”).

If you *really * are interested in learning exactly what Catholics and other Christians really believe about the Trinity, I invite you to check out the attached articles:

rosary-center.org/ll47n3.htm
cuf.org/faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=136
 
DeFide and Fidelis,
I appreciate your explanations and I read them very carefully. But it just seems like you’re trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. You start with the ONE GOD position and then you take three distinct beings from the Bible and try to cram them into One God and you end up with this complex doctrine which appears to me like intellectual gymnastics to make three into one. The LDS position that they are three distinct but unified persons (one in purpose) comprising the Godhead makes more sense to me. But I mean no disrespect and I don’t think we’re too far apart anyway so I think I’ll bow out of the discussion at this point.
 
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Casen:
DeFide and Fidelis,
I appreciate your explanations and I read them very carefully. But it just seems like you’re trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. You start with the ONE GOD position and then you take three distinct beings from the Bible and try to cram them into One God and you end up with this complex doctrine which appears to me like intellectual gymnastics to make three into one. The LDS position that they are three distinct but unified persons (one in purpose) comprising the Godhead makes more sense to me. But I mean no disrespect and I don’t think we’re too far apart anyway so I think I’ll bow out of the discussion at this point.
May I suggest you stop using the term “beings”? It’s far too ambiguous and is causing an impediment to clear communication.
 
RE: May I suggest you stop using the term “beings”? It’s far too ambiguous and is causing an impediment to clear communication.

Fine, how about “personages”.
 
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Casen:
RE: May I suggest you stop using the term “beings”? It’s far too ambiguous and is causing an impediment to clear communication.

Fine, how about “personages”.
Yes, that’s fine, because it can be recognized as “persons”.

In your everyday life you can see that persons and natures are not always a 1 to 1 relationship. While humans have 1 nature and 1 person, we can see that chairs, rose plants, etc. have 1 nature and 0 persons.

We can then see that it’s possible that God has 1 nature and 3 persons. Indeed it makes sense since the object of God’s infinite love cannot be contained/received by humans or limited creation, but it can only be recieved by another infinite person. This is expounded by this nice link that was posted earlier. Look at the sections on the orgins of the Persons of the Son & Holy Spirit:
rosary-center.org/ll47n3.htm

It’s also covered more fully in the book Theology & Sanity, by Frank Sheed.
 
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Casen:
Robert or Michael,
OK, help me out then. Please explain the Bible verses I quoted. I’m particularly interested in John 17:11 and John 20:17. I’m not trying to be combative; I’ve just never heard a good explanation from the standpoint of the Trinitarian doctrine.
==============

Casen

If you look at your belt which you wear around your waist, you will see that it has 2 sides, namely the OUTside and the INside.

Now remove your belt from your waist and connect the end of your belt to the other end of the belt which is the belt buckle, (1) not inside to inside and outside to outside (2) BUT INside to OUTside.

Now, in arrangement number (2) TELL ME AND THE AUDIENCE HOW MANY SIDES YOUR BELT HAS.
 
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