Trouble with Eucharist

[AquinasXVI]

CollegeKid:

Let’s investigate the Most Holy Sacrament in a different angle.

God asked for faith from Adam and Eve to believe him about the matter of the fruit of the tree. They failed.

Christ asks us to have faith that the Eucharist is Him per John 6. So the whole faith on the Holy Eucharist is our response to this mystery. We either take the leap into the Grand Canyon or not in a way. Do we trust in what our eyes see or do we trust his word? So the Holy Eucharist is a challenge to our entire being. If on the otherhand Christ did turn every host into flesh “accidentally” then faith does not factor into the equation anymore. We do not get a chance to correspond to the mystery. We would then be compelled because of absolute proof.

The challenge is to see beyond. To see the utter humility of Christ to again empty himself of his glory and come to us in such a passive state.

I highly recommend what was recommended earlier—try perpetual adoration and St. Julian Eymard’s (spelling?) Eucharistic Retreats (book that guides adoration).

God bless us all with faith to deepen our faith in the Holy Eucharist.

 

[BibleReader]

CollegeKid:

Hi everybody. As some of you may remember, I am a recent convert and I have never had a perfect faith in the Real Presence of the Eucharist. I pray daily that my faith will be strengthened and I think I am moving closer to attaining a strong faith in this miracle, however. I think that one of my biggest stumbling blocks in accepting it is that the Church teaches that the bread and wine are completely changed into Christ’s body, blood, soul, and divinity and do not remain bread and wine at all, but at the same time I’ve had priests tell me that if a chemist were to analyze the bread and wine in a lab he would find that its still bread and wine. The problem for me is not so much accepting the miracle of transubstantiation, but accepting that there has been a complete change in the elements when this can be empirically disproven. Its almost as if the Lutheran doctrine of consubstantiation, that the bread and wine are bread and wine and Christ at the same time, would be easier to accept. I would really appreciate anyone’s constructive comments on how I could try to get past this obstacle to my faith.

Hi, friend.

The Real Presence doctrine is taught in several different ways in the Bible.

In the Nativity scene in Luke, we see Jesus wrapped in swaddling clothes like a cadaver, and lying in the manger, a feeding trough. So, we see Jesus’ actual dead body being served as food on a serving plate. Where? In “Bethlehem,” Hebrew for “House of Bread.” So, instead of bread being served on a serving plate, we see Jesus’ actual body.

Here’s another one…

In Judges 19, a sexually unfaithful concubine, believe it or not, is the Christ symbol. She was born in Bethlehem, she leaves Bethlehem on the “fifth” day, where the Five Type = “Christ.” She rides an a s s into Jerusalem, like Christ did. Later in the story, she dies in the darkness, like Christ did, with her “hands,” where the Arm/Hand Type = “Christ,” on a threshhold, where the Door Type = “Christ.” There is simply no doubt that the sexually unfaithful concubine is the Christ symbol in the story.

In any event, in the story the Levite (of the “priestly” tribe) sacrifices her for the sake of the people in a house, by shoving her out the door into the hands of a sex crazed mob of bisexuals. They literally rape her to death.

While this is happening, those in the house are eating bread and wine.

Then, at the end of this terrible, surreal story, the Levite finds her body at the theshhold, picks it up, and cuts it into pieces, and distributes the body parts to Israel.

The sacrifice of the concubine from Bethlehem and distribution of her actual body to Israel is a picture of the sacrifice of the Real Presence and distribution to God’s people. This is done while the people in the house are eating bread and wine because that is “Identification by Juxtaposition” – we are being told, “Event A, the sacrifice of and distribution of the actual body, is the same as Event B, the bread and wine consumption.”

There are more of these in the Bible. I think that they are so brutally clear to really drive home the Real Presence idea.

 

[RyanL]

BR,

I’ve seen you write this a few times now, and I enjoy it more every time I read it. Is this something you discovered on your own, or did you get it from somewhere (if this, please let me know where! I want to read!).

God bless,
RyanL

 

[BibleReader]

RyanL:

BR,

I’ve seen you write this a few times now, and I enjoy it more every time I read it. Is this something you discovered on your own, or did you get it from somewhere (if this, please let me know where! I want to read!).

God bless,
RyanL

Actually, the Church is fully aware of it. It is discussed in the CCC and in Dei Verbum, at the front of most Catholic Bibles today.

The Cardinal of Vienna who wrote the standard version of the Divine Office was aware that the typology in the Bible is an organized, comprehensible system, and built this into some of his discussions in the Divine Office.

I outlined the system with much greater clarity, in a series of articles in The Catholic Answer Magazine, put out by The Sunday Visitor organization. I’m now writing the same sort of article for *The Catholic Response *Magazine.

A manuscript for a book on the subject is still only about 75% completed.

 

[BibleReader]

BibleReader:

Actually, the Church is fully aware of it. It is discussed in the CCC and in Dei Verbum, at the front of most Catholic Bibles today.

The Cardinal of Vienna who wrote the standard version of the Divine Office was aware that the typology in the Bible is an organized, comprehensible system, and built this into some of his discussions in the Divine Office.

I outlined the system with much greater clarity, in a series of articles in The Catholic Answer Magazine, put out by The Sunday Visitor organization. I’m now writing the same sort of article for *The Catholic Response *Magazine.

A manuscript for a book on the subject is still only about 75% completed.

If you like, I’ll teach the system to you, here, but you must suspend skepticism unitil you learn the system. Otherwise, you’ll lose your enthusiasm for it, before you know enough to judge it, and give up.

 

[mercygate]

BibleReader:

If you like, I’ll teach the system to you, here, but you must suspend skepticism unitil you learn the system. Otherwise, you’ll lose your enthusiasm for it, before you know enough to judge it, and give up.

Can you apply this system to the interweaving of the “bread” in John 6 and with the “vine” of John 15? Have you done that already, or should I just do my own homework?

 

[RyanL]

BibleReader:

Actually, the Church is fully aware of it. It is discussed in the CCC and in Dei Verbum, at the front of most Catholic Bibles today.

The Cardinal of Vienna who wrote the standard version of the Divine Office was aware that the typology in the Bible is an organized, comprehensible system, and built this into some of his discussions in the Divine Office.

I outlined the system with much greater clarity, in a series of articles in The Catholic Answer Magazine, put out by The Sunday Visitor organization. I’m now writing the same sort of article for *The Catholic Response *Magazine.

A manuscript for a book on the subject is still only about 75% completed.

BR,
I look forward to the book, and will buy a copy as soon as it hits the shelf. Also, my question was not about typology in general (as it is mentioned explicitly in Sacred Scripture, as well as the CCC/Dei Verbum), or even the four senses of scripture, but about this application specifically. I have never read anyone else interpret Judges 19 (specifically) in the way that you have, and I was wondering if this *particular *interpretation was yours or if you found it among the ECF, say.

God bless,
RyanL

 

[BibleReader]

mercygate:

Can you apply this system to the interweaving of the “bread” in John 6 and with the “vine” of John 15? Have you done that already, or should I just do my own homework?

John 6 is one of the gospels’ five-loaves-and-two-fish stories.

The Five Type = “Christ.”
The Grain Type = “Eucharistic bread.”
The Two Type = “Church.”
Normally, the Fish Type = “a damnable soul from the sea of damnable souls.” However, Christ is frequently symbolized with sin and *sinner * types, because as Paul points out at 2 Corinthians 5:21 Christ is “He-Who-did-not-know-sin-Who-was-made-to-be-sin” – though sinless, He ended up being treated as though He were sin, itself. So, you can see Christ in the form of a fish in Tobit 6, where a great big Christ fish tries to do what Christ says at Matthew 18:8 should be done with sin.

In any event, applying the Standard Typological Definitions to the elements of the story, “five loaves” = “Christ” (five) “Eucharistic bread” (loaves). – the “five-ness” of the loaves defines the bread as “Christ bread”! The bread is “Christ stuff”! The Real Presence.

“Two fishes” = “Church” fishes, where the fishes, in light of the “Christ bread,” are undoubtedly the Tobit 6 fish – Christ in the form of “He-Who-did-not-know-sin-Who-was-made-to-be-sin.” So, “two fishes” would be Christ in the form of “He-Who-did-not-know-sin-Who-was-made-to-be-sin” (fishes) from the “Church” (two).

So, the miracle of five loaves and two fishes, vastly multiplied and distributed to the people, is a picture of the institution of the Eucharist.

That is why the author notes that the “feast of Passover” was near. John 6:4.

There are “5,000” men because 10 x 10 x 10 x 5 = “very very very much Christ[ian].” They are “men” because Definition #3 of the Man Type = “empowered by God.” They are a picture of Christians empowered by God receiving the Eucharist. They start out on the “shore” of the Sea of Galilee because they are not in the Sea of Galilee, an Abyss Type analog for “the sea of damnable souls.” In other words, they are “saved.” They go up to a “mountain” because the Mountain Type = “God’s dwelling place.”

So, we have a very idyllic word picture, here, of saved Christians empowered by God in God’s dwelling place receiving “Christ bread,” the actual flesh of “He-Who-did-not-know-sin-Who-was-made-to-be-sin,” from the Church.

Now, Christ calls Himself the “vine” in John 15 because He is saying, “Do you know that vine with many branches in Ezekiel 17? Well, I’m the vine, and you are the branches.” Obviously, the vine picture implies that Jesus is a “Eucharistic wine” provider, and we the branches are a “Eucharistic wine” people, who will produce much fruit.

The two go together very well in a homily. John 6 is a Eucharistic bread picture. John 15 (and Ezekiel 17) entails at least a reference to the Eucharistic wine.

 

[mercygate]

BibleReader:

Now, Christ calls Himself the “vine” in John 15 because He is saying, “Do you know that vine with many branches in Ezekiel 17? Well, I’m the vine, and you are the branches.” Obviously, the vine picture implies that Jesus is a “Eucharistic wine” provider, and we the branches are a “Eucharistic wine” people, who will produce much fruit.

The two go together very well in a homily. John 6 is a Eucharistic bread picture. John 15 (and Ezekiel 17) entails at least a reference to the Eucharistic wine.

Yes. Thank you very much. That is exactly what I was getting at – thinking more of the Bread of Life discourse than the feeding of the 5000 – but it paints the same picture.

 

[BibleReader]

RyanL:

BR,
I look forward to the book, and will buy a copy as soon as it hits the shelf. Also, my question was not about typology in general (as it is mentioned explicitly in Sacred Scripture, as well as the CCC/Dei Verbum), or even the four senses of scripture, but about this application specifically. I have never read anyone else interpret Judges 19 (specifically) in the way that you have, and I was wondering if this *particular *interpretation was yours or if you found it among the ECF, say.

God bless,
RyanL

ECF = “Early Church Fathers.” Beats me.

All I know is that the interp, using STDs (Standard Typological Definitions) works.

The Fire Type = “a special presence of God.” (That’s the reason for Moses’ burning bush in Exodus. The reason why those who arrest Christ are carrying “lanterns” and “torches” (John 18:3) is to probably to show that God the Father is “on the side of” Jesus’ persecutors, in the sense that He is offering His Son foir sacrifice!)

The Jar Type = “mortal man.” (That’s why God makes Adam out of clay, like a potter, in Genesis 2.)

A jar containing fire = “a special presence of God” *inside of *the body of “m ortal man” – the Incarnation, Christ.

So, those fire-filled jars being smashed by soldiers in Judges 7 are a picture of Christ being killed by soldiers in the Passion narratives.

There are 300 jars to tell us that this smashing of the Incarnation would be “10 x 10 x 3” – “very very much the will of God.”

 

[BibleReader]

BibleReader:

ECF = “Early Church Fathers.” Beats me.

All I know is that the interp, using STDs (Standard Typological Definitions) works.

The Fire Type = “a special presence of God.” (That’s the reason for Moses’ burning bush in Exodus. The reason why those who arrest Christ are carrying “lanterns” and “torches” (John 18:3) is to probably to show that God the Father is “on the side of” Jesus’ persecutors, in the sense that He is offering His Son foir sacrifice!)

The Jar Type = “mortal man.” (That’s why God makes Adam out of clay, like a potter, in Genesis 2.)

A jar containing fire = “a special presence of God” *inside of *the body of “mortal man” – the Incarnation, Christ.

So, those fire-filled jars being smashed by soldiers in Judges 7 are a picture of Christ being killed by soldiers in the Passion narratives.

There are 300 jars to tell us that this smashing of the Incarnation would be “10 x 10 x 3” – “very very much the will of God.”

Again, if you are patient, I can teach you the system.

 

[MarySon]

There are two documents that John Paul II wrote, which I would like to recommend to you to read. One of them is the Encyclica “Ecclesia de Eucharistia” which contains Church’s teaching on the subject,vatican.va/holy_father/special_features/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_20030417_ecclesia_eucharistia_en.html The other one is an apostilic letter, which the Holy Father wrote for the Year of the Eucharist. vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_20041008_mane-nobiscum-domine_en.html

 

[Reid]

Things to think about!

1. Water is H2O right?, When you freeze water it turns to Ice. The Ice is still H2O but in a frozen state. But the physical look of the water and Ice are very different. Yet the stuff that makes the H20 whether liquid form or frozen form is the exact same thing.
2. You would never never put Hydrogen on a fire would you?
   Nor would you put Oxygen on a fire? But Firefighters do this everyday to put out fires in the form of H2O. Its one of those things we do not question because through experience of seeing Firefighters put out fires we know it works. Take away one of these ingredients and you have dangerous situation.
3. The American Flag is made from cloth. But when we put the cloth together with the red and white stripes, the blue with stars to make a flag, this becomes more than a piece of cloth. We honor this flag, we defend this flag, sometimes we die for the flag. If we look at the cloth that made the flag, did the material itself change? NO. But this is more than cloth now, it is our Flag. So here is an example of making cloth into something much more, yet remaining the same.

 

[Reid]

When Jesus was born, he was placed in a manger.
A manger was a feeding troth for the animals.

Baby Jesus was placed on a “feeding troth”

Throughout His life he told people that he was the “bread of life”
he was a “door”, he was a “vine” and so forth.

So Jesus was placed on you could say a serving trey for who?
Everyone who believes. The Magi came from the east, the Shepherds came from the west. Jesus Christ was born so that everyone, all races, all religions, all people would have an opportunity to believe in Him.

Jesus tells us trully trully this bread is my flesh and this wine is my blood. He even states that up til now he has spoken and taught in parables but what I have to say right now is the truth, whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood will have eternal life.

The protestant circle does not believe in the words of Christ, they take a lot of stories and preach well because its in the bible it is literally true. yet when it comes to Christ own words well he didnt mean that. many of his disciples went back to their old tradtions and Jesus asked His apostles if they wished to leave too.

The Eucharist is the essence of your salvation. And it is the heart and soul of the Church. With Christ in the Eucharist, His Church, and our beliefs or faith we are good, you start taking those things away, well we are just a sinner.

 

[DianJo]

Gosh, so many people have given you wonderful images and things to think about!

I’ll add another that has to do with the Passover. You are familiar with the institution of Passover in Exodus, right? It was God’s will that the first born of Egypt be killed for the sake of God’s people. The Israelites had an opportunity to “save” themselves by doing something God had told them to do.

They were to take a young, perfect lamb, kill it and sprinkle its blood on their doorframe and lentel. The “angel of death” would passover their homes and they would be saved. They were to roast the lamb and eat it. They were to make bread without leaven because they had no time to let it rise because they were to flee “enslavement.”

In Jewish sacrifice, instituted by God early in our salvation history, there were a few things that had to happen in order for the “covenant” to be binding. The animal had to be killed, a portion of the blood was to be sprinkled on the people and the slaughtered animal was to be eaten by the people, the rest was sent up as a burnt offering to God. So the people had to participate in the sacrifice. All of these rquirements had to be met in order for there to be a binding covenant.

Jesus, being the good Jew He was, the night of the Last Supper - the Passover meal, the Seder supper - He did not complete the Passover; therefore the old covenant was not binding. There are 4 cups of blessing (wine) in the meal and He stopped at the 3rd - the cup of communion. He got up and went to the Garden to pray. He prayed, “Father, let this cup pass from me!” What cup? The 4th cup in the Passover meal is the cup of acceptance. Remember when Jesus is on the cross and He says that he thirsts? The soldier gives Him a sponge soaked with sour wine & hyssop - at that point He says the words “It is finished!” What’s finished? The Passover meal - He had accepted the 4th cup - the cup of acceptance.
So, we have the Lamb, young and perfect (none of Jesus’ bones were broken as traditionally happens with crucifixions) that was killed, His blood was shed on a wooden cross (doorpost and lentel) for the salvation of all (the Jews in particular). He said He was the new covenant - He was to be the sacrifice, This IS my body, this IS my blood. The old covenant of the Passover was changed in midstream to the new covenant.

There are so many other typologies of the Eucharist - like the ones posted previously but I’m partial to the Passover/Last Supper because it directly relates to Holy Communion at Mass.

I really hope these answers and images help you with your understanding. Time in Adoration will help.