Troubling argument

[AlwaysinTruth]

I’ve begun arguing with atheists recently and I find it difficult to address the claim that the Church is nothing but a power hungry institution out for its own interests. That or some other variation of the claim. How does one go about addressing this? Tips for arguing with atheists would be appreciated as well

 

[asd72]

askacatholic.com/_WebPostings/Answers/2009_09SEPT/2009SeptWhyNotGiveItAllToThePoor.cfm

 

[Nan_S]

I’ve begun arguing with atheists recently and I find it difficult to address the claim that the Church is nothing but a power hungry institution out for its own interests. That or some other variation of the claim. How does one go about addressing this? Tips for arguing with atheists would be appreciated as well

I suppose the atheist making the claim is a paragon of altruistic virtue? No? You mean he hasn’t put all his assets into a chartible remainder trust and purchased a life insurance policy naming his favorite charity as the beneficiary? Why not?

The point I’m trying to make is that the atheists making such claims:

1. Never read the annual financial reports of the Vatican or their local Catholic church.
2. Couldn’t possibly live on a priest’s salary, even if they tried.
3. Are usually nothing but power hungry individuals looking out for their own interests.

When slapped by ignorant arguments like this, the best defense is to go on the offense. They’re not interested in your justifications, so providing them answers merely invites more nasty challenges. Point out their own selfishness instead.

 

[steve9191]

I’ve begun arguing with atheists recently and I find it difficult to address the claim that the Church is nothing but a power hungry institution out for its own interests.

Hmm! As opposed to, say, all those atheistic governments that are only out for their own power and riches (and to be treated like gods). Ask them to start being consistent and intellectually (something in which they take great false pride) honest in their judgement of ALL institutions. If the Church is out only for power, ask them why:

1. there are so many popes, bishops, priests, and lay persons who suffer matyrdom for Christ…not the Church hierarchy;
2. there is an inverse relationship between the faithfulness of the Bride to the Bridegroom, and the numbers of atheistic governments who brutalize and murder it’s citizens in massive numbers…hmm, abortion comes to mind;
3. the Church has banned any clergy from holding political office.

By way of a quick aside: I remember that a group of atheists recently used an outdoor advertising campaign to get the message out that church-goers should abandon their faith and join with the atheists. I think they left out the last line which should have read…“because misery loves company!”

 

[TravisJTH]

I’ve begun arguing with atheists recently and I find it difficult to address the claim that the Church is nothing but a power hungry institution out for its own interests. That or some other variation of the claim. How does one go about addressing this? Tips for arguing with atheists would be appreciated as well

Are they arguing whether they agree with the institution of the Catholic Church or whether there is a God? Proving that the Church is made up of fallible mortal men and women, who sometimes make mistakes and even a few who are corrupt, doesn’t disprove the existence of Almighty God.

By the same token: I don’t agree with some of the current leaders of our nation, but I still believe whole heartedly in the ideals America was founded upon.

We can play that game, too. The concept of Darwinism supports racism, eugenics and euthanasia (the Nazis were hardcore into social darwinism)… So nobody should believe in evolution, unless they support racism, eugenics and euthanasia. Scant logic, I know, but no less scant that your Atheist friends.

 

[Peter_Plato]

I’ve begun arguing with atheists recently and I find it difficult to address the claim that the Church is nothing but a power hungry institution out for its own interests. That or some other variation of the claim. How does one go about addressing this? Tips for arguing with atheists would be appreciated as well

In some sense the Church is, but consider what is at stake, if the mission of the Church is the eternal salvation of the souls of all human beings on earth, fulfilling that mission is not going to be made more likely by relinquishing the field and turning over all resources to the opposing side, as much as the opposing side would like that.

The apparent “vast treasures” of the Church is a collection, held in trust, of the legacy of human artifice and genius made possible by the graces of God. They are, in a sense, gifts, made by the hands of men to God and held in proxy by the Church. Should the Church cheapen the priceless worth of these artifacts given in the past as gifts to God by masters of art and architecture, by having a garage sale and disposing of them to the highest bidder? That would be a travesty to the legacy and memory of the devoted creators of these pieces. At the end of time, these treasures will be turned over to God, their rightful heir and recipient.

Some do not understand the differene between the sacred and the mundane. They simply want to reduce all value to $ or €.

 

[AlwaysinTruth]

Thanks for the responses. Don’t know why none of this came to mind while arguing. Not that you have much time to think when 3 atheists and agnostics are playing off each other’s thoughts and you’re the only theist there.

 

[Qoeleth]

I’ve begun arguing with atheists recently and I find it difficult to address the claim that the Church is nothing but a power hungry institution out for its own interests. That or some other variation of the claim. How does one go about addressing this? Tips for arguing with atheists would be appreciated as well

The first response is that there is ‘the Church’, and there are the human beings who are in it. Sure, many of them are ambitious, self-interested, corrupt.

But that doesn’t discredit the teachings of Christ…

 

[Tingo]

I’ve begun arguing with atheists recently and I find it difficult to address the claim that the Church is nothing but a power hungry institution out for its own interests. That or some other variation of the claim. How does one go about addressing this? Tips for arguing with atheists would be appreciated as well

Parts of the Church, or people in it, have always sought power and pursued their own selfish interests. Were this not the case, you would have no trouble convincing atheists that God exists, since the Church would show itself to be a super-human institution. But as you can read on many days of any month on CAF Catholics are all to aware that their Church is a human institution. Just look at the arguments about how the numbers of pedophiles compare with the numbers in other institutions.

But the Church does not claim that it is better in practice than other institutions, or that its members are better people in their actions. So the atheists, and you, are no further ahead in this argument.

There are also, of course, many cases of individuals and parts of the Church which do a lot of good. And the same could be said of any institution. So this does not win you an argument either.

Your only hope of making progress on this issue is to concede the awfulness of everything they say the Church has done and ask them to consider how Catholics who know that continue to have faith. Arguing that the awful things did not happen (as you see on CAF about the inquisition) or are just to be expected (as you see on CAF about the abuse scandal) won’t win you any atheist souls (should they have souls!).

 

[robwar]

I’ve begun arguing with atheists recently and I find it difficult to address the claim that the Church is nothing but a power hungry institution out for its own interests. That or some other variation of the claim. How does one go about addressing this? Tips for arguing with atheists would be appreciated as well

First of all, you will not win arguments. You can make points to plant seeds but there is not tips about arguing because your view should be plant seeds of faith, not to win in arguing. When someone brings up power hungry or corruption, you can state that yes, there have been times that the Church being run by flawed humans and sinners and that in leadership there have been failures. Admitting this is true, but also states that all of us are flawed and have had failures and need forgiveness by God. The Bible is very honest about the failures of many of the people in it. But, even when we fail or there has been failure in leadership in the Church, we know we can turn to God in forgiveness and that God can still use us and change us.

 

[grannymh]

I’ve begun arguing with atheists recently and I find it difficult to address the claim that the Church is nothing but a power hungry institution out for its own interests. That or some other variation of the claim. How does one go about addressing this? Tips for arguing with atheists would be appreciated as well

Sometimes before breakfast, my crazy sense of humor runs wild, while my brain is not in gear.

Here goes my reply
— Of course, the Catholic Church is an institution out for its interests.

Its primary interest is getting me and everyone else to heaven.

 

[TimothyH]

I’ve begun arguing with atheists recently and I find it difficult to address the claim that the Church is nothing but a power hungry institution out for its own interests. That or some other variation of the claim. How does one go about addressing this? Tips for arguing with atheists would be appreciated as well

If you argue with them then you confirm everything they believe about the Church.

You argue with them by not arguing with them. You love them instead. Cut their grass, bake them cookies or wax their car. Ask for nothing in return. That’s how you argue with them.

-Tim-

 

[Deconi]

Thanks for the responses. Don’t know why none of this came to mind while arguing. Not that you have much time to think when 3 atheists and agnostics are playing off each other’s thoughts and you’re the only theist there.

Really?! Point me to them!

I love ‘ignorance’ and the claims against the RC!

 

[Rajeev_Joseph]

Church is in continuous process of Development. Each day church is growing to the perfection of God. I think church is the authentic succession of Christ. We should have a realistic picture of the Church. Its Human Scenario is Weak. But Divine Scenariso is Strong always. Church in the human hands … so we should love the church. St. Cyprian Says one cannot love God as father if he did not love the Church as Mother.
So before our arguments be convinced about mother church

 

[sw85]

I’ve begun arguing with atheists recently and I find it difficult to address the claim that the Church is nothing but a power hungry institution out for its own interests. That or some other variation of the claim. How does one go about addressing this? Tips for arguing with atheists would be appreciated as well

Why do assertions of this sort trouble you? Of course atheists are going to say something like that. If they didn’t believe it they wouldn’t be atheists.

 

[steve_b]

I’ve begun arguing with atheists recently and I find it difficult to address the claim that the Church is nothing but a power hungry institution out for its own interests. That or some other variation of the claim. How does one go about addressing this? Tips for arguing with atheists would be appreciated as well

I suspect if that was true, it wouldn’t have lasted 20 years let alone 2000 years. Ask yourself, who would be willing to lose their life or put their life on the line, witness some horrific measures exacted on Church members, throughout the ages, if this was some self serving man made institution rather than the truly and divinely instituted institution that it is?