Trusting the Conscience?

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My faith and reason wills that conscience ought to be heeded, and something (conscience :D) seems to say it ought to be so as well. However, being that I think most of our moral descisions are made by this faculty which is better developed through formation (practice and contemplation), ** why should we obey/listen to our conscience**? Perhaps it is akin to (or even part of) reason in that it is self-justified/intuitive?

Furthermore, what more can be said about the conscience? Is it our connection to be able to see how any particular action in relation to an item lines up to God’s will (something that seems near impossible otherwise)? Is it sort of a revelation into the nature of anything we are dealing with (hence how a well formed conscience seems to speak out the unseeable truth that human life is sacred when such information is not easily obtained otherwise.)?

-Important Note: *just so a lack of precise/certain answers do not cause anybody too much trouble, just remember that we should also ask ‘why not’ and that one only rejects something (if they are rasonable) when they have something which is better to turn to. Simple rejection by lack of knowledge is to trade something for nothing (always a bad and illogical choice). *
 
My faith and reason wills that conscience ought to be heeded, and something (conscience :D) seems to say it ought to be so as well. However, being that I think most of our moral descisions are made by this faculty which is better developed through formation (practice and contemplation), ** why should we obey/listen to our conscience**? Perhaps it is akin to (or even part of) reason in that it is self-justified/intuitive?
Conscience is like human life itself. It is naturally oriented towards God, but it requires refinement and development to become more perfect. We should inform our conscience and listen to it. Moral problems are often not clear-cut and often are hidden from our daily awareness. So, we examine our conscience to see if we’ve gone astray.
Is it our connection to be able to see how any particular action in relation to an item lines up to God’s will (something that seems near impossible otherwise)?
Yes.
Is it sort of a revelation into the nature of anything we are dealing with (hence how a well formed conscience seems to speak out the unseeable truth that human life is sacred when such information is not easily obtained otherwise.)?
Sounds good.
 
I think that concience brings other things to bear, other faculties that God has given us, than the cold light of human reason.

One is intuition, which is perhaps related to reason, but is more subtle and makes connections between things that are not always available for our reason.

Another is emotion, which can also give us valuable insights into people and situations.

These things should be governed by reason, but reason can’t usually afford to ignore them. I think some people find that their intuition and emotion are more reliable guides than their reason, though that could be tricky.

Reason alone could lead us to some unfortunate conclusions - “the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few” kind of thing.

It’s unreasonable not to consider the promptings of conscience, like cutting out your eye if it tricks you occasionally with an optical illusion.
 
These things should be governed by reason, but reason can’t usually afford to ignore them. I think some people find that their intuition and emotion are more reliable guides than their reason, though that could be tricky.
Intuition yes, but emotion no. I would see emotion as being the servant of reason/intuition. It is like added strength (be it anger, pity, sorrow, fear, or joy) for the use of one’s reason and ought to be brought in line (if it is not) to do so better.

At any rate, I think the best reason to obey ones conscience is like the reason we obey reason (if it really is any different). It justifies itself, and we lose almost all direction in life without it. Perhaps most importantly, it is foolish to abandon something for nothing just because of skepticism.
Reason alone could lead us to some unfortunate conclusions - “the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few” kind of thing.
This is an interesting observation, although I think you may mean “the ends justify the means kind of thing” (which I think reason refutes actually). It poses the very interesting question: * ‘Can reason and conscience ever contradict themselves in one’s mind?’ I am not sure it can. Sure emotion can create emotions that compel one away from a rational choice (I don’t see emotions as my conscience only a possible servant of it), but does the conscience do so?

It seems at times some wrong action seems justified through reason where there is only some intuition that tells you it is wrong. However, I would say this intuition might be called a reason just like any other premises in your reasoning might be called. Like worldly empirical observation (which may comprise your reasons in favor of that contrary-to-conscience action), your reason for trusting it (senses) seems to be the same for trusting any intuition. So perhaps a justification for obeying sense perception could work for that intuitive conscience?

So we might justify believing in sense perception by saying that ‘if it is true I stand to gain by being faithful to it, but if it is false I know of nothing I lose by being faithful to it’. Something similar could be said with conscience. 'I stand to do good if I am faithful to it, yet if it is false I know of no good I stand to lose by being faithful to it’. However, a difficulty arises in both when they conflict, the latter part of both (‘know of nothing I lose/ know of no good I stand to lose’) may be true when regarded by themselves (perception or no/ conscience or not), but when combined at times it seems you do know of good you may stand to lose by giving higher authority to one or the other. At least as far as judgments of morals (that is, human ends) are concerned I think I have a small (and surely flawed and imperfect) solution.

We can toss out utilitarian ethics since it judges the good of an action by its end. Since the ‘end’ produces another end and so on by its causal chain (possibly ad infinitum), we will always be ignorant (and infinitely so) of the final end of any action. Furthermore, even if we were so wise to see all ends, our knowledge of the end could only be known after the action, not prior to it. Thus, utilitarian ethics logically seem to take a side place to ethics that judge on the action itself (means). The goodness of means are largely understood a priori (without/prior to sense experience), and it seems conscience combined with reason is the only guide to that. Therefore, it seems that conscience is the only hope for us humans (in our unfortunate ignorance) to ever do anything close to ‘good’. Therefore, it seems we might say: “I stand to do/give/gain good if I am faithful to conscience, yet if it is false I know of no good I stand to lose by being faithful to it. Indeed it is really my only hope for goodness given my supreme ignorance and futility of utilitarian calculations.”

–Anyhow, that is my 2 cents. I could use your all’s helpful thoughts on the subject (and prayers) for I am oddly going through the pain of realizing my supreme ignorance. There are so many connections I have realized I have never examined yet took for granted. Now I feel the need to understand them better so I can feel more honest (perhaps certain?) about my convictions and thus have more strength. Whether this is all for better or for worse I do not know, but it certainly provides a way for temptation for spiritual sloth (a sort of laziness or despair).*
 
It seems to me there are 3 aspects to understanding what constitutes a good conscience:
  1. Conscience is the voice/call in us to do good and avoid evil.
  2. In order to carry this out, we need to learn what is good and evil. Since it is God who determines what is good and what is evil, we need to study the teachings of His word in Scripture and in Church teaching.
  3. The conscience then makes appropriate choices in concrete situations that conform to these learned truths that God has revealed through His Word and Church.
I think the CCC section on “Moral Conscience” is very good.
vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a6.htm

A few excerpts from that section:
CCC #1776 "Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil.

CCC #1777 Moral conscience, present at the heart of the person, enjoins him at the appropriate moment to do good and to avoid evil. It also judges particular choices, approving those that are good and denouncing those that are evil. …

CCC #1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are …tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings.

I think a very common mistake is to think that conscience is the use of one’s reasoning powers to determine what is good and what is evil. It’s what Adam and Eve did in the garden. They thought they could decide for themselves what was good for them - that their reasoning superceded God’s revealed will. Big mistake!!!
 
Another is emotion, which can also give us valuable insights into people and situations.

These things should be governed by reason, but reason can’t usually afford to ignore them. I think some people find that their intuition and emotion are more reliable guides than their reason, though that could be tricky.

Reason alone could lead us to some unfortunate conclusions - “the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few” kind of thing.
It was perhaps emotion that led to the installation of an openly gay man who had left his wife and kids to the Episcopal office of bishop and to deny the sacrament of marriage. catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=34090 😦 In all honesty, it seems that truth is denied in favor of the will. Truth is an integral aspect of conscience, as related by the pope below.

From the popes book On Conscience:
** “The reduction of conscience to subjective certitude betokens at the same time a retreat from truth. When the psalmist (Psalm 19:12-13: “But who can discern his errors? Clear thou me from my unknown faults.”) in anticipation of Jesus’ view of sin and justice pleads for liberation from unconscious guilt, he points to the following revelation: Certainly, one must follow an erroneous conscience. But the departure from the truth that took place beforehand and now takes its revenge is the actual guilt, which first lulls man into a false security and then abandons him in the trackless waste.”**
The truth that associates one to reality is the means by which we conform our actions to the reality that is existence in God, “in Whom we live and move and have our being”.(Acts 17:28)
 
The word “conscience” itself means “with knowing.” So with knowing what? Many ideas might be attached to that, but the simplest, from my perspective, is knowing that what seems “other” then yourslef, is nevertheless in fact essential you in a mirror. In other words, consicence means treat your neigbor as yourself. Do unto others as you would have done unto you. Do not do untoothers as you would not have don unto yourself. Don’t dump garbage into the air, land, water, or mind of others, because it is your air, land, water, or mind.

One of the most devastating premisis of the English language, and Western interpretations of the Bible and the Techings of Jesus in general, is that they assume a discreet existance for what appear to be identifiable individuals. It is forgotten that there is and inherent connectivity of sense and responsibility inherent in Creation. It all happens at once and is of a piece. Therefore, if you harm a neigbor, invariably you harm yourself, see it or not. So conscience also has to do with consequence, or what follows your action as an immediate result, or a time-delayed ripple that invariabley returns to you. This is why we re-enforce good, and disempower evil.

So Conscience has to do with knowing who and what you actually are, and seeing that reflected in the world around you. Conscience could be said to be the awareness feedback system of how you are acting in integrity with your Self, or Soul factor.
 
The word “conscience” itself means “with knowing.” So with knowing what? Many ideas might be attached to that, but the simplest, from my perspective, is knowing that what seems “other” then yourslef, is nevertheless in fact essential you in a mirror. In other words, consicence means treat your neigbor as yourself. Do unto others as you would have done unto you. Do not do untoothers as you would not have don unto yourself. Don’t dump garbage into the air, land, water, or mind of others, because it is your air, land, water, or mind.

One of the most devastating premisis of the English language, and Western interpretations of the Bible and the Techings of Jesus in general, is that they assume a discreet existance for what appear to be identifiable individuals. It is forgotten that there is and inherent connectivity of sense and responsibility inherent in Creation. It all happens at once and is of a piece. Therefore, if you harm a neigbor, invariably you harm yourself, see it or not. So conscience also has to do with consequence, or what follows your action as an immediate result, or a time-delayed ripple that invariabley returns to you. This is why we re-enforce good, and disempower evil.

So Conscience has to do with knowing who and what you actually are, and seeing that reflected in the world around you. Conscience could be said to be the awareness feedback system of how you are acting in integrity with your Self, or Soul factor.
Sounds like Karma, less like the Catholic view of conscience as the spark of the divine in our souls that comes from God. We have a duty to form this conscience in truth lest it becomes a method of justifying the subjective moral relativism based on our own desires. Do unto others only goes as far as our own wants, if we don’t mind being used, is it OK to use another? No! Truth is the antidote to subjectivity.
 
Sorry, I was assuming maturity on your part. I would not want to harm myself, cause turbulence in my own life, or pain, suffering, poverty, any one of those things. I also believe that the dictums I mentioned are scriptural and the love your neighbor one was from Jesus himself.

And what is more like the spark of the Divine “in” our souls, as you put it, than recognizing that spark as another and treating them with that due respect? Is that spark not from the same Source? Or are you a spiritual materialist claiming “my” spark and “your” spark, ignoring its origin?

Karma is a word that translates as “action” in the sense that what we do has consequences relative to our own soul. You may not agree with the reincarnationist part of that in another system you don’t adhere to, but I do believe that as far as having consequences, you would agree that our actions do have consequences. You mentioned Karma, from where that interpretation came, I don’t know. I’m only saying that conscience is knowing that your actions rightfully have repercussions on your own state. What is un-Catholic about that? What is un-Catholic about either the OT or NT form of the Golden Rule???

All I can gather from your reply is that you are looking for something to pick at that isn’t there.
 
Therefore, if you harm a neighbor, invariably you harm yourself, see it or not. So conscience also has to do with consequence, or** what follows your action as an immediate result, or a time-delayed ripple** that invariably returns to you. This is why we re-enforce good, and disempower evil.
Karmas are attracted to the karmic field of a soul on account of vibrations created by activities of mind, speech, and body as well as on account of various mental dispositions. Hence the karmas are the subtle matter surrounding the consciousness of a soul.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma
So Conscience has to do with knowing who and what you actually are, and seeing that reflected in the world around you. Conscience could be said to be the awareness feedback system of how you are acting in integrity with your Self, or Soul factor.
Not that Karma is even implicitly contained in your post, it is implied in a view of conscience as experiential. Not that you are wrong in your opinion or don’t have good points to make. I see, and am pointing out, some words and phrases that could be taken as a reference to Karma, cause and effect, from experience. Would you not agree it could be seen as such, from a certain point of view? I’m not attacking you, but the new age/eastern religious influence that is making inroads into Catholic parishes and even evangelical churches. This leaves Jesus as bereft of divinity and reduced to only His teachings in light of an eastern paradigm.crossroad.to/articles2/006/ingrid/evangelical-comtemplative.htm
According to karma, performing positive actions results in a good condition in one’s experience, whereas a negative action results in a bad effect. The effects may be seen immediately or delayed. Delay can be until later in the present life or in the next…the concept of “action” or “deed” in Indian religions understood as that which causes the entire cycle of cause and effect.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma
The Truth of Jesus is transcendent as the spirit that gives life is also. Moral choices are difficult if based on life experience, as life experience is different from person to person, even country to country. From the Catechism:
1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a6.htm
I’m only saying that conscience is knowing that your actions rightfully have repercussions on your own state.
Yes, this is guilt. Confession, also cleansing one of sin in contrition and restoring one to a right standing with the Church, the Body of Christ, removes guilt and gives grace to the participant. Today’s psychology is full of methodology trying to removing guilt by removing the concept of one’s actions as sinful and replacing it with “I’m OK, your OK”. Truth of God is replaced with the “truth” of man with results seen in wanton depravity in life and art.

The emphatic “No!” in my response to your post was not personal, it was directed at the readers of this thread who could take the above as a reinforcement of the less than specifically Catholic view of conscience. This is Catholic Answer Forum (it really should be titled: Predominately Catholic OPINION Forum, in my opinion, as answers are in the minority) and a Catholic answer I was trying to assert, however unfavorably in its economy of words. I have tried to show, maturely, that my previous post has merit, although punctilious, and no insult was intended. Conscience can be justification to great evil, as in the case of “just following orders”, and must be seen in light of truth, Jesus, as well as ones own good. Thank You and Sorry.
 
**Today’s psychology is full of methodology trying to removing guilt by removing the concept of one’s actions as sinful and replacing it with “I’m OK, your OK”. Truth of God is replaced with the “truth” of man with results seen in wanton depravity in life and art.
** It destroys a lot more than that. If we say all actions are ‘Ok’ the ability to communicate between people is utterly lost (for people will contradict each other’s wants) and we become completely individualistic and isolated from reality if it is taken to its full extent (which it normally doesn’t seem to be with such hypocrisy). If it becomes ‘Ok’ for you to will to murder while also ‘Ok’ for the victim to will to stop you from it, then solely in regards to those two wants no communication can be made between the two (common ground to will the same end/truth/action), and any claim that one ‘ought’ to win over the other is absurd (thus might becomes the only rule to determine the outcome).

I think you pointing to art is an example of this. There is no common beauty/truth to be communicated in something that does not try to appeal to an objective beauty/truth. The more and more particular/qualified beauty one appeals to in art (ultimately to individualistic), either the less communication between people is made, or at least those who see a different/greater beauty will be unhappy with that.

-Anyhow, with conscience, I like what some of the medievals had to say about it. The distinction between synderesis and conscience is interesting to read about.
 
My faith and reason wills that conscience ought to be heeded, and something (conscience :D) seems to say it ought to be so as well. However, being that I think most of our moral descisions are made by this faculty which is better developed through formation (practice and contemplation), ** why should we obey/listen to our conscience**? Perhaps it is akin to (or even part of) reason in that it is self-justified/intuitive?

Furthermore, what more can be said about the conscience? Is it our connection to be able to see how any particular action in relation to an item lines up to God’s will (something that seems near impossible otherwise)? Is it sort of a revelation into the nature of anything we are dealing with (hence how a well formed conscience seems to speak out the unseeable truth that human life is sacred when such information is not easily obtained otherwise.)?

-Important Note: *just so a lack of precise/certain answers do not cause anybody too much trouble, just remember that we should also ask ‘why not’ and that one only rejects something (if they are rasonable) when they have something which is better to turn to. Simple rejection by lack of knowledge is to trade something for nothing (always a bad and illogical choice). *
**I think it takes time for us to recognize the wisdom in doctrines such as original sin (a doctrine which implies, among other things, the existence of an uninformed conscience in fallen man), and also the wisdom in teachings on sin and grace which tell us that man continues to sin and which help inform us as to correct moral behavior in order to form correct consciences. Reflecting back from my present perspective I can see many areas where the Church was simply right and I was wrong. In one way the whole battle is really one between a belief in objective morality and a belief in relativism, or no morality at all.

One example is the fact that we’re under no obligation in everyday matters to tell each other the truth. If honesty is a problem-and we all struggle with it to varying degrees-one must finally decide that dishonesty or lying is objectively wrong. We must consciously determine to make the effort to always tell the truth or else that part of us that is mainly self-serving will always try to subjugate truth or anything else to a place beneath its own aspirations for glory or money or things or pleasure or whatever. For me this has been a long process-not over yet. But you know it as its happening because a sense of integrity is gained and one simply feels better/healthier internally as the conscience increases in its formation and serves as a clearer and clearer beacon to help us navigate.

Again, we don’t have to do it. God helps but never forces and so we’re always left with an awful freedom that places us in a position where we must decide on this matter or that and its not always easy We may even prefer to disbelieve in the reality of the conscience in an attempt to forestall a decision.**
 
Hi Earnest,

I found your deliberations and reflections useful and of importance. I hope that my understanding of your meanings is clear.

It seems you are finding it necessary to distinguish between conscience and Karma. The first place I’d go with that is to back off the planet and think about this: The globe is covered with people who are made from a common mold, i.e. the image and likeness of God. And yet, they are dispersed through time and space, needing in their particulars to deal with conditions they are born into according to predilections of their culture, history, geography, etc. Though there’s been a degree of inter-cultural communication throughout history, at this point all the local mentalities of the world are confronting each other more than ever even thought possible. And yet, essentially, we are from the same mold.

It is this sameness that might be our hope in reconciling our differences, if we can but see it, and distinguish clearly between essence and content. By essence I mean the soul factor, or image and likeness factor, By contents, I mean all the things we learn that we think we are and use to get along in our daily life. It is these things, our “daily life” things, that are the source of our disagreements. They are so, because since we have globally different conditions, we have needed to emphasize different ways in order to cope. The way of the Eskimos and of the Tuareg are not interchangeable, and neither of those might do well in a cross cultural port city. And yet there is a sameness in all humans. We recognize each other as such.

Remembering that Christianity is only a fairly late development compared to the history of the race itself, it might be fair to understand that many people, having been made essentially as the image and likeness of God, might make an attempt in their own way to understand, know, and relate to the Unknown and the Invisible God. So we have, then, thousands of years of people who are the image and likeness of God attempting to know God “on their own” as we might infer from today’s Christian viewpoint.

Yet, we have to grant, I think, that if we accept that we are all, and always have been, made in the image and likeness of God, then it follows we ought to be able to glean something about God by looking at ourselves. If you don’t have a love done next to you, you might look at a picture of them and remember. I guess that is why we have statues and such in our churches.

So what all this has to do with karma and conscience is this: they are dealing with the part of us that has to do with responsibility for our actions and with the understanding that our actions have consequences for ourselves and others. This is so by whatever means we use to assess those actions.

I think what the difference might be in your perception and that of some others is that “conscience” as understood by Christians has to do with judgment by God as to the ultimate disposition of the soul. “Karma” as understood by Christians seems to have to do only with personally experienced results of actions without reference to God as we understand God. How that might include the idea of reincarnation is another matter.

But it kind of boils down to this sort of analogy: If you are baking a cake, you either know or don’t know a recipe. In either case, if you mix things in a bowl and put the result in an oven, you get a result according to what you put in the bowl. Christians claim to “know” the recipe as a teaching handed down over time from the original Baker. Christians also feel that non Christians, even non-Catholics, don’t have the recipe.

Since we are all made in the image and likeness of God, and salvation is possible “outside” the Church, there must be degrees and kinds of recipes, resulting in everything from cupcakes to wedding cakes, eg. Nevertheless, they all fit the idea “cake.” In other words, there may be other recipes for “salvation.” The Church does not claim that all those who do not know of Jesus’ teaching are damned.

This is where the article you cited might come in. I read it, and having been both a staunch Roman Catholic and currently being an adherent of Adavita, an ancient Way relative to the Root of religions, I have a bit of perspective on this matter. The article is clearly has emotional/alarmist elements, for one, and second, the author has no clue as to the actual meaning and intent of practices that are allegedly only Eastern in origin. She is condemning them on the grounds of her strictly Evangelical Christian ethic, being concerned more with ideology than accuracy.

First, let me say that as far as I can see, religion and goodness have little, if anything to do with one another except coincidentally by way of intellectual explanation. Second, the roots of Christianity are in the very practices she condemns. This is history, if one cares to look at the origins of the Church beyond the Catholic revisionist version. Third, though there is a deal of confusion that might result from introducing original practices into more recent and far more limited understandings, those practices have to do with the oldest, most valid, and demonstrably experiential way of knowing God in existence, namely: “Know Thyself.”

If you do not intimately know experientially who and what you are, how you think and why, and where the contents of your awareness comes from, the practice of any religion, however allegedly true, is only of limited efficacy. One might as well take a telescope out of focus and thus study Nature. The results will be distorted according to the degree of lack of self knowledge, or proper use of the instrument.

This is why the understanding of conscience as the realization that the seeming “other” is actually in essence yourself, is crucial. Without such nuanced understanding it is easy to fall into complications of distinctions that are not pertinent to soul.
 
Detales
, the roots of Christianity are in the very practices she condemns. This is history, if one cares to look at the origins of the Church beyond the Catholic revisionist version. "
I am a Catholic, and I am insulted by this lie.
experiential way of knowing God in existence, namely: “Know Thyself.”
The problem with all the navel gazing that has been going is that if you haven’t developed character and formed a good conscience based on God’s laws, the only thing you are staring at is a big, self worshiping blank.

Of course, as an ‘Advaintist’, an ascended master, you don’t agree.

But may God grant you light,

Annem
 
I think what the difference might be in your perception and that of some others is that “conscience” as understood by Christians has to do with judgment by God as to the ultimate disposition of the soul. “Karma” as understood by Christians seems to have to do only with personally experienced results of actions without reference to God as we understand God. How that might include the idea of reincarnation is another matter.
From my limited knowledge of ‘Conscience’ and ‘Karma’, I would think it most logical to conclude that conscience is a voice that helps one understand ‘what God disapproves’ or what one’s ‘Karma balance will be’. The Christian thinks it is an insight into right action, but then so do the people who believe in Karma. Karma, then, is just the ‘judgment’ the Christians speak of when one does wrong (eye for eye justice, something we can’t deal because we never know another’s guilt). The only difference is the Christian explains this judgment by God, and those (some) who believe in Karma do not justify it in the only solid first principle there can be (God/being itself).

Therefore, Karma is not so much ‘conscience’ as it is ‘righteous judgment being fulfilled’. Likewise, conscience is not so much ‘God’s judgment fulfilled (final judgment)’ or ‘Karma’ as it is an insight into that standard that would be used (given such judgment or Karma would take place).

So the only differences are between ‘God’s final judgement (which even seems to start taking place in time)’ and ‘Karma’s movement’. Thus they do not seem that much different (on face value), but the Christian ideal brings the whole myth to a perfect logical circle (rather than vicious one open to blind mysticism) in being/truth itself. Of course there is also talk of how much guilt there is, etc, known by the consequences Karma or God dish out. The way I see it is Karma is further proof that man, even without direct access to the Church on Earth, sees the truth of God written in his heart but is clouded in particulars due to fall (however that exactly played out)
 
Dranu, actually you make a good point by pointing out a sbtly I glossed over. The idea of karma seems to have to do with the overall Law of Reciprocity. Conscience has to do with an individual’s perception of what and how action relates to “Good.” In christainist thinking it seems that judgement is a deliberate weighing and meteing out by God as a person, whereas the karmic idea seems to have it more built in to the system of existance itself.

I do believe that as it says in the psalm,"…Yea, Thy law is within my heart." But as to what constitutes the fall, we may have a hugely differing understandings of what that is. For my part, I maintain that religion and goodness, and therefore salvation, have but a nodding aquaintance with each other.
 
Salvation outside of the Church is not taught by the Magisterium, although the nuances of the statement as it relates to the reality of what actually happens is left to God, from Whom salvation comes.

The authority of the Church as the moral conscience of the body of Christ is derived from revealed truth and handed down from the apostles. This conscience reveals to individuals what was placed there by God Himself, the natural law, and is made explicit in the Decalogue. Individuals conscience is similar in this “remembrance” of what is there but is clouded by the concupiscence of original sin. Knowing oneself is possible only in context of Christ as the True Man, what man is supposed to be. Grace accomplishes this by uniting one to God, lost in the fall and recovered on the Cross, the power of life in the soul. All this is Catholic teaching but one is free to reject it, at their own peril. Our faith is reasonable, it can be known and studied, St. Thomas, Plato, Aristotle, Augustine, etc. Only God can move the will toward Himself, as St. Thomas Aquinas says:
Man can do nothing unless moved by God, according to John 15:5: “Without Me, you can do nothing.” Hence when a man is said to do what is in him to do, this is said to be in his power according as he is moved by God. Summa !!, 109, article 6
Reject God and the soul, the person, is led into temptation. Jesus is the Truth, so an honest search for the truth is a search for Him.

Back to conscience… moral reasoning is not the same as conscience. Conscience is deeper. Guilt is deeper still. From On Conscience by the current pope:
Guilt lies then in a different place- much deeper, not in the present act, not in the present judgment of conscience, but in the neglect of my being that made me deaf to the internal prompting of truth.
Truth is the determining factor of conscience, the Truth of God, unchanging and revealed, that is not imposed from without but is internal, as Detales rightly states a part of the image and likeness of God, and is given to us as natural law. Truth is the basis on which we stand judged on the wrongness of the act, which could have been deemed right according to an erroneous conscience made deaf due to not forming it correctly, as St. Paul states:
28 And even as they refused to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity; whisperers, …
Conscience is not infallible but we must listen to it, formed rightly in objective truth.
 
In christainist thinking it seems that judgement is a deliberate weighing and meteing out by God as a person, whereas the karmic idea seems to have it more built in to the system of existance itself.
Agreed. However, when the karmic idea is actually applied to ‘existence itself’ and thought out logically, mean the same to me as far as my reasoning can tell (i.e. ‘God’s righteous judgement’ largely seems equivalent to ‘karma’ in their basic idea). The only difference is I think the idea of a more ‘personal’ God (but only vaguely I think)
For my part, I maintain that religion and goodness, and therefore salvation, have but a nodding acquaintance with each other.
There was a time I would perhaps of agreed more with this, but I have ‘learned’, as of late, the utter inadequacy of reason without the grace and promptings of God (thus in short, a sort of argument for revelation). I am not talking about any logical contradictions I have found but rather one of the gravest enemies of man that works in irrationality, as far as I can tell in the ‘dark nights of the soul’. The only remedy seems to be God’s grace (particularly in the form of faith and love), but it is something I think we (not just you) cannot adequately discuss in the first place. That is not to say I do not hold out hope for those who appear outside of the faith, and worse still, those who do the most henious crimes by reference to the Catholic faith, just that I do not see religion and goodness as being as disconnected as you do. However, it may just be a difference defining of terms going on (in fact I sort of suspect this :D).
Earnest Bunbury:
Back to conscience… moral reasoning is not the same as conscience. Conscience is deeper.
That is a curious statement to me. I had always thought of honest moral reasoning as deeper (since it can form the conscience, and thus change it), though it appeals to truths even deeper. Maybe by moral reasoning, you mean particular judgments at a particular moment made by the conscience?
 
That is a curious statement to me. I had always thought of honest moral reasoning as deeper (since it can form the conscience, and thus change it), though it appeals to truths even deeper. Maybe by moral reasoning, you mean particular judgments at a particular moment made by the conscience?
If conscience is the judge of moral reasoning, is it reasoning’s proximate end and thus deeper? If it is the participation in God to the fulfillment of what humans are to be, then it is not the basis for making truth (subjective) but for applying truth (objective), thus deeper perhaps?

There are, according to “An Introduction to Moral Theology”(quotes from the book are underlined) there are different levels of awareness of conscience, and of course meanings of the word. This is related to how we see and use conscience. The Freudian “Psychological” meaning is related to “superego” and experiential, non-rational influences on the person and are realized in feelings of approval and disapproval. This cannot provide moral guidance and we are not obliged to follow it.

There is a general awareness of moral truth, also understood as conscience, that is not at the level of particular actions or situations. St. Thomas calls this “synderesis”, a “habitual awareness of the first principles of practical reasoning and morality”.

The Church uses conscience to “designate the agency whereby human persons participate in God’s eternal and divine law”, our awareness of moral truth. This “awareness” has different levels related to a persons awareness of moral truth. “At one level, it refers to a practical judgment terminating a process of moral deliberation”. It is an act of the intellect and is not a feeling, although feeling is involved as we have emotions and intellect. Feelings though should not drive our actions (nor our cars, we may not feel like stopping at a red light but an intelligent person does).

The level I was indicating is the deeper sense of self-awareness, as Detales rightly mentioned, but is related to a transcendent creator, God, (not a Hindu concept of oneness with each other or the universe involving a cause and effect relationship. One may accept this and reject the Catholic view, but one rejects the transcendent God along with it, as per Catholic teaching) and according to the Fathers of Vatican II, “Conscience is the most secret core and sanctuary of a man. There he is alone with God, Whose voice echoes in his depths”, Gaudium et Spes. This is beyond reasoning, to the point of humble acceptance of what is right based in the eternal God. "Although we commonly think of conscience as commanding us to do certain things, the fundamental command of conscience is to be.

In light of “conscience as a command to be”, the reason and intellect wills the action related to the conscience, we are led back precisely to the beginning of this thread:
My faith and reason wills that conscience ought to be heeded, and something (conscience :D) seems to say it ought to be so as well.
This is where the Church is said to “propose”, not “impose” due to the fact we are made by God and God has given us the infused sense of good in our nature. Original sin obscures this and we must suffer and sacrifice to obtain the divine nature that was lost and that is above the animal nature in which we are currently mired. This seemed accurate to me.
 
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