Trying to explain the Trinity to my 22 year old son, Am I close

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I believe that our God the only true god who created everything is a single entity with 3 distinct natures. I think the tradition of explaining the Trinity as a candle with 3 wicks or Saint Patrick’s explanation of a clover with 3 petals, but one leaf fall far short.

What I do know is God is. I know that where Jesus is God The Father and God The Holy Spirit dwell completely within him. I know that God The Father is Jesus and God The Holy Spirit dwell completely within him. I also know like the other two where God The Holy Spirit is that God The Father and Jesus dwell completely within him.

I know that all three have no beginning and no end. God The Father begot not created Jesus. I believe the relationship of God The Father and Jesus is that of a father and a son. God The Father empties himself completely out to the Son. Jesus the son reciprocates by showing the Father all the love. The love of Jesus is so complete that he condescended to the form of a true man in all things but sin. His love is so complete that he allowed himself to be tortured to death for love of his father’s will.

What I don’t understand as well but have been told is about The Holy Spirit the Paraclete of God. I start to understand that the love that the Father has for the Son is so real that it has a name and that name is God The Holy Spirit. I am understanding, that the Love of Jesus the son is so real for the Father that, that love is a separate nature, and has a name God The Holy Spirit. I also believe that the Love of Jesus is so real that he left that love her for us when he went to heaven to be our intercessor and that Love’s name is God The Holy Spirit
 
Roy, You are doing a good job! I only differ with you in one way, that I can see from one reading.

Are you saying that the Holy Spirit is not the third “person” of the Holy Trinity? Are you saying that the love the Father and Son have is called the Holy Spirit?

I ask that because I get confused when you say the Holy Spirit is “love”. I have learned that there are three distinct personalities, yet all three are one in the Trinity. Each having a separate job , so to speak. 🙂
 
First, correctly God is of one nature in three persons, God is triune.

We know this through revelation, our primary source is Jesus Christ, one of the persons of the Trinity. In other words the teachings of Christ have revealed these things to us, otherwise we would have no hope of knowing them. It took bishops of the church many generations to work it out as far as we have, don’t expect it to come easily to anyone else, particularly an adult whose natural posture should be expected to be at least a little sceptical.

A lot of people will tell you more technically detailed information on the Trinity, and quote Aquinas, etc. but it could possibly make the whole enterprise even more frustrating. I have never seen an anoalogy that was sufficient. Even the explanations can obscure the reality of God in their complexity.

With our little pea brains, we are simply not capable of comprehending it fully. If we insist upon understanding it completely, there is always a danger that our imagination will take over.

Childlike Faith in the mystery is our best option. But if you want to know more, read Theology and Sanity by Frank Sheed, I think it would help.
 
It is very hard for me to love The Holy Spirit like I love The Father and The Son. I only love The Holy Spirit because I know he is part of The Father and of The Son and I do so love them.

I believe that all 3 are separate and unique, I also believe all 3 are 1. The Holy Spirit is conundrum to me, I believe he is an unique individual that is part of the one God. I also believe that it was The Holy Spirit that came over Mary and caused her to be with child. I am inclined to believe that The Holy Spirit is pure love that is so powerful that it is a separate unique entity. When I say The Holy Spirit is ‘love’ I don’t mean the 4 levels of love we know but a level of love that is so pure and strong that is a real unique individual.

I understand what it is like to be a father I am one and I am also a son but I have no model of what a Holy Spirit is. I would love to know if there is some point of reference, something I can correlate it with on earth, tell me I really want to know.
 
Nothing I say on the subject will be adequate. I have some thoughts about it to share and a little information from the Early Fathers I can pass along. Hoping and praying that you find satisfaction in Faith.*
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A strong and heavy wind was rending the mountains and crushing rocks before the LORD - but the LORD was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake - but the LORD was not in the earthquake.

After the earthquake there was fire - but the LORD was not in the fire. After the fire there was a tiny whispering sound.

When he heard this, Elijah hid his face in his cloak and went and stood at the entrance of the cave. A voice said to him, “Elijah, why are you here?” *1 Kings19:11-13

The Holy Spirit is with us always. Perhaps we need to become still and attentive to sense this presence of God. Perhaps we need to get past the noise and clamor and clutter.

The Holy Spirit can be like the air we breathe, (or water for fish). Or the gravity that holds us with a constant pull, so pervasive and unrelenting that we might not even notice.

We are to live in the Spirit.

I quote V. Lossky:
*One can say that in a certain sense the work of Christ was a preparation for that of the Holy Spirit: “I came to cast fire upon the earth; and would that it were already kindled!” Luke 12:49 Pentecost is thus the object, the final goal of the divine economy upon earth. Christ returns to the Father that the Spirit may descend: “It is expediant for you that I go away, for if I go not away the Comforter will not come unto you” Yet in His personal coming the Holy Spirit does not manifest his person, he comes not in his own name but in the name of the Son as the Son came in the name of the Father, to make known the Father. ‘One does not think of the Father without the Son’ says Saint Gregory of Nyssa ‘One does not conceive of the Son without the Holy Spirit, for it is impossible to attain to the Father except by being raised by the Son, and it is impossible to call Jesus Lord save in the Holy Spirit’

The Divine Persons do not themselves assert themselves, but one bears witness to another. It is for this reason that Saint John Damascene said that ‘the Son is the image of the Father, and the Spirit the image of the Son.’ It follows that the third hypostsis of the Trinity is the one not having His image in another Person. The Holy Spirit, as Person, remains unmanifested, hidden, concealing Himself in His very appearing.This is why St Symeon the New Theologion was to praise Him…under the lineaments of a Person at once unknowable and mysterious:
Come true light
Come eternal life
Come hidden mystery
Come treasure without name
Come unutterable thing
Come unknowable person
Come incessant joy!
Come light unfading
Come hope which will save all
Come resurrection of the dead
*(I abbreviated this litany, it goes on quite a bit)
*Come O powerful one, who fulfills, transforms and changes all things by your will alone
Come invisible one, wholly intangible and (name removed by moderator)alpable
Come breath and my own life, consolation of my lonely heart
**
The doctrine of the Holy Spirit (in contrast to the dazzling manifestation of the Son which the chuch proclaims to the farthest confines of the Universe) has the character of a secret, a partially revealed tradition. St. Gregory of Nazianzen points to a mysterious economy in our knowledge of the truths which concern the person of the Holy Spirit: ‘The Old Testament’ he says’ manifested the Father plainly, the Son obscurely. The New Testament revealed the Son and hinted at the divinity of the Holy Spirit.’

*PRAYER FOR GRACE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

Come Holy Spirit, Sanctifier all powerful, God of Love,
You who did fill the virgin Mary with grace, You who did wonderfully transform the hearts of the apostles, You who did endow all Your martyrs with a miraculous heroism, come and sanctify us.
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Illumine our minds, strengthen our wills, purify our consciences, rectify our judgments, set our hearts on fire; and preserve us from the misfortune of resisting Your inspirations!
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Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, now and unto ages of ages
Amen
 
How about using a water analogy?Water has three states liquid,solid and gas, although three states exists the the substance remains the same, one substance.Does that work?God Bless
 
I don’t think so because that would be a good analogy for modalism.

God is not three persons in sequence exclusively, but all three at once.

I hesitate to even guess at a good analogy.

I have thought of things like: friend-spouse-coworker all at once

also the Artisan of the Universe: conceiver-designer-builder

Nothing I can think of is adequate.

It’s beyond me.

+T+
 
I think you and your son will like a book by Scott Hahn & Leon J. Suprenant as editors. The book discuss the triune God as a family. According to them the ONE GOD is a FAMILY with THREE PERSONS in it (Father , Son and Holy Spirit). This book really gives one something to think about.

The full title is: “Catholic for a Reason: Scripture and the Mystery of the Family of God”.

I give you a link to the table of contents, so you can get some idea of what it is inside the book (at page 5, first capitle, Hahn discuss: "The Greatest Mysterey of Faith - The Trinity as the First Family):

amazon.com/gp/reader/0966322304/ref=sib_rdr_toc/103-3288788-0200650?%5Fencoding=UTF8&p=S007#reader-page

Blessings!

G.Grace
 
I believe that our God the only true god who created everything is a single entity with 3 distinct natures.
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In your 1st Post, where you write nature, replace it with Persons. There is One Nature-God in the Trinity.

I’ll give this a try:
A woman is unigue in her nature - Female Human.
But:
She may be 3 distinct Personalities at the same time:
  1. Her father sees her and addresses her as Daughter.
  2. Her husband sees her and addresses her as Wife.
  3. Her children see and address her as Mother.
The 3 true and distinct personalities of the Woman represent the 3 Persons of the Trinity in that her relationship with each of the 3 types of people in her family life see her quite differently. She does not confuse her personality among those 3.Yet She is by nature, a woman.

A muslim or Jew would only see her as a woman…nothing beyond.

Now, when the woman nurses her baby, is she a Mother, a Wife, or a Daughter?
She is always a Woman, but is acting through the personification of a Mother only.

2nd Try:
The Love of a man and woman generates a child. All three are distinct persons, but only one Nature-Human. Now, this can be taken as 3 gods. But what part of a child is NOT of his mother? What part of a child is not of his father?
What part of the man did not love his wife? What part of the woman did not love her husband? In the creation of the child.
In the Godly order, there is no flesh to generate. It is the Perfect Knowledge (clue.Lk 1: “I know not man”) of the Father of Himself that begets a Perfect Love called by Him as His Son. The Perfect Knowledge of these 2 creates a Perfect Love that generates BETWEEN the 2, and generates the H.S. The Perfect Knowledge and Perfect Love between the Father and Son is not the same in Personality as that between the The Son and the H.S. or the Father and the H.S.
Similar to a child’s love of mother vs the Father’s love of daughter vs a Husband’s Love of Wife. Yet who would say that one love is more complete than the other?
3rd Try:
You light a welding torch.
Which came 1st?
  1. Heat
  2. Flame
  3. Light
By theory, but not to the naked eye, the order of existence is:
  1. Heat (Father) Intensity creates a glow (light)
  2. Light (Son) adding to intense heat creates a flame
  3. Flame (H.Spirit) a flame causes consumption or absorption
    The Heat and Light generate a Flame (tongues of fire)
Yet they are the 3 distinct personalities of FIRE. (God). A Fire cannot exist without these 3 personalities.

THE SIGNATURE OF THE ARTIST IN DESIGN OF THE UNIVERSE
OUR GOD LOVES AND CREATES IN 3’s
3 PARTS OR DIVISIONS OF TIME - PAST, PRESENT, FUTURE.

3 PRIMARY COLORS FROM WHICH ALL COLOR IS PRODUCED - RED, GREEN, BLUE.

ATOM - THE BASIC BUILDING BLOCK OF THE UNIVERSE
MADE UP OF
3 ELEMENTS - PROTON, ELECTRON, NEUTRON

MATTER - THE BASIC SUBSTANCES OF THE UNIVERSE
MADE UP OF
3 FORMS - MINERAL, VEGETABLE, ANIMAL

3 CONDITIONS OF ALL MATTER - SOLIDS, LIQUIDS, GASES

3 ASPECTS OF PERSONS - BODY, MIND, SOUL.

3 SIDED TRIANGLE - STRONGEST, MOST STABLE CONSTRUCTION DESIGN.

3 ABSOLUTE SURVIVAL NEEDS OF HUMANS - AIR, WATER, FOOD.

3 ELEMENTS REQUIRED FOR THE LIQUID OF LIFE - WATER- 1 OXEN, 2 HYDROGEN,
(THIS UNIQUE SUBSTANCE IS THE ONLY ONE THAT GETS LIGHTER WHEN TURNED INTO A SOLID.)

3 ELEMENTS OF FIRE - FLAME, LIGHT, HEAT

3 REQUIREMENTS FOR A FAMILY - FATHER, MOTHER, CHILD. JUST LIKE THE TRINITY.

3 ABODES OF THE HUMAN SOUL - EARTH, HELL, HEAVEN.

3 DIMENSIONS OF ALL MATTER IN THE UNIVERSE - LENGTH, WIDTH, HEIGHT

3 CONDITIONS OF ALL MEN - LIFE, DEATH, RESURRECTED.
 
You are courageous to even try that dialouge. I would just say, here read this chapter in Frank Sheed’s Theology for Beginners…
 
What I am trying to do is engage my son in a conversation that over time will bear fruit, maybe the fruit of The Holy Spirit. I hope over the next number of weeks and months to write him on a weekly basis probing him to find a common ground where we can converse and grow. My son, while still having faith is moving farther from the Church in an attempt to find love and acceptance. The world has hold on my son, with all of it’s confusing messages, sex, sexuality, love, acceptance, eudaemonism what part of you is nature what part of you is nurture on and on to the point of wondering, without despair, can they ever make it back to god.

My reason for starting with the nature of God is that seems to be a fundamental point on which all other destinations must be grounded. His primary question he asks to his other brothers is “if we have an omni benevolent God why is there sin.” But I don’t feel I can even approach that topic until there is an understanding of the nature of God. Honestly I would like to give him CS Lewis’s Screwtape Letters, I feel that would answer the question of why sin. The problem with giving him a book and not letters is 2 fold. First a book is not as personal as a letter. Second I may be able to catch his attention with a letter but to get him to read a book I suggested may not be as easy.
 
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serendipity:
You are courageous to even try that dialouge. I would just say, here read this chapter in Frank Sheed’s Theology for Beginners…
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I agree. It is nearly impossible to engage in conversation about the Trinity without falling into some sort of heresy. Reading Frank Sheed’s “Theology for Beginners,” starts one out on the right track.

To reach an orthodox and correct understanding of the Trinity, one should begin first by understanding what we can know of the attributes of God, (also in "Theology for Beginners), and the distinction between “person” and “nature”; then go on to studying the Trinity.
 
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roymckenzie:
Honestly I would like to give him CS Lewis’s Screwtape Letters, I feel that would answer the question of why sin. The problem with giving him a book and not letters is 2 fold. First a book is not as personal as a letter. Second I may be able to catch his attention with a letter but to get him to read a book I suggested may not be as easy.
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Excellent suggestion, in fact you could give him the audio tapes (or CD) if you can find them. They are not intimidating, they can be shut off at any point but they are entertaining and draw one in.

I listened to the Screwtape Letters narrated by John Cleese and I was riveted! (I borrowed these from the library)

It had a formative effect on me actually, and charmed me into digging deeper into C.S. Lewis, which had additional influence on me.

Another bonus is that C.S. Lewis was a friend and rival of Tolkein, and they influenced each other. Pretty soon the seeker is drawn into the Catholic worldview through literature. Then Chesterton becomes interesting, then Frank Sheed gets added to the library to deepen understanding.

All we can do is plant some seeds, it’s up to the Holy Spirit after that…really!

+T+
 
The image of Father and Son are very easy for us to understand but the Holy Spirit and who He is can be very mysterious. Yet it is the Holy Spirit who can become very near and dear to those who believe and recieve the fulness of God’s life in us by loosing and letting go the Holy Spirit that we recieved in baptism. Jesus said it best when he raised Lazarus “who was a symbol of the Holy Spirit” “Name means God’s Helper” Lazarus come forth, loose him and let him go.
Unfortunately many catholics die with Christ in Baptism but do not rise with him by allowing the full potential God has for them by this great marrage of God and Man in allowing the Holy Spirit to join them in the daily life here on earth.
My mother is typical of a way of walking in Catholic tradition with prayer and weekly attendance at mass but when ask about her relationship with God she will say, he is way off in heaven somewhere and we will not see or know him till after death and the next life.
The way we see God is determined by what we believe about Him.
In the world of science, great thinkers say that if a fourth demension exist we could only be aware of it if we are become part of it.The example given is to step one level down and imagine a two demensional world where there is only width and deepth and no hieght. If you try to enter into thier world and expain height to them you would not be able to show them because the only part of our world that would be visible to them would be width and deepth.
The apostle Paul said eye has not seen and ear has not heard nor has it so much as dawned on man what God has waiting for those who love him.He finished with “We have the mind of Christ”.
The Holy Spirit is the most myterious and seemingly faceless but it is we who give Him clearer idenity and a face to those who want to see Him when we are married to God by recieving a portion of His Spirit. We see now only dimly as through a glass and what we are to become is not certain but this we do know that when Christ our hope shall appear we shall appear and we shall be like Him.
God Bless
 
Well, first off, I think that one of the reasons we have so much trouble with the Trinity is that we don’t have a basic understanding in experience what unity means or what love means. We don’t get how absolute Personality and absolute Unity can co-exist because we don’t understand either one. We have this little fake idea of ourselves that we carry around and try to prop up, and it is literally nothing, a figment of our imaginations, a person who does not exist and never has because it is in some sense a person who exists outside of God. We carry similar ideas about other people. We start to believe there is a reality to our made-up constructs by which we try to make sense of it all. These ideas are literally nonsense–if you spend any time examining your ideas about yourself and others, the fears and doubts and false hopes you really operate from, you know what I mean–yet our whole lives are built on them. No wonder we can’t start to have the first idea of the nature of God. God is real, and we’re living in illusion. That illusion is the root of our sin.

The same thing goes for the Incarnation. The idea of a person carrying the two natures, divine and human, in absolute unity seems almost outlandish to us. Yet that is what we are called to be. We are called to let God unite wholly with us and fill us wholly with his life. In that process, we do not lose our lives, but find them… because the only life that had to die was the ridiculous one made up in our head where we had, in any sense at all, a life apart from God.

So before you start to explain the Trinity, explain that there are barriers to the understanding of it that can only be overcome by experiential union with God. In other words, you will only come to understand it little by little as you begin to live in it, and you’ll only really understand it when you live it in Heaven. You have to get a lot of wrong ideas out of your head and your heart to understand Trinity, and mere mental gymnastics won’t do it. You have to hand yourself over to it.

On a practical note, you might ask your son to consider the web of life, how the life we can see and touch on this earth is tied up one living thing to another and with the movement of the stars and planets, how much goes on unseen in the consciousness of the people and animals. The whole thing is incomprehensible in its beauty and the depth of its reality. Any attempt to de-construct it and compartmentalize it in some sense diminishes it. If the created universe is like that, how much more so its Creator? Yet in the context of that intricate web, the idea of a God who is at once absolute Personality and absolute Unity, exuding a life of Community and abounding Life seems really to make all the sense in the world.
 
The Root, The Shoot, and the Fruit!? I heard a priest describe the H.S. this way once. The Holy Spirit is God, and the Messenger and teacher of all things Love (Truth). A really awesome book is The Faith Explained out of the U.k. i ordered it online I think through Barnes and Noble.

Peace and Love
 
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roymckenzie:
I

What I do know is God is. I know that where Jesus is God The Father and God The Holy Spirit dwell completely within him. I know that God The Father is Jesus and God The Holy Spirit dwell completely within him. I also know like the other two where God The Holy Spirit is that God The Father and Jesus dwell completely within him.
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Please be careful when you make such remarks, such as the phrase which I highlighted above, since groups like the Oneness Pentecostals who deny the Trinity say something similar.

The Son is personally distinct from the Father although they are one in essence/nature. Otherwise, if Jesus is the Father, to whom was Jesus praying in the Garden? Who was Jesus talking to when He asked the Father why He (the Father) has forsaken Him?

Gerry 🙂
 
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