Trying to remain faithful amongst contradicting philosophies

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Ben_Sinner

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So I’m pretty sure its been noticeable the last couple of days…

I have been struggling with all kinds of different theories that contradict the church. I don’t know how I got myself in this situation.

So I ask…how can I trust the church over all these philosophers?

How can I just say ‘no’ to these theories? Solipsism, Nominalism, “God is impossibly logical”, etc. etc.

There are so many out there that seem to prove that our religion is illogical.

I’m not a philosopher (nor intend to be), so my intelligence is far below these guys and I’m worried that there is a sufficient argument for every claim to faith I have.

What is one remedy I could use even amongst the bleakest of times where I can trust the church?
 
Ben_Sinner said:
So I’m pretty sure its been noticeable the last couple of days…

I have been struggling with all kinds of different theories that contradict the church. I don’t know how I got myself in this situation.

So I ask…how can I trust the church over all these philosophers?

How can I just say ‘no’ to these theories? Solipsism, Nominalism, “God is impossibly logical”, etc. etc.

There are so many out there that seem to prove that our religion is illogical.

I’m not a philosopher (nor intend to be), so my intelligence is far below these guys and I’m worried that there is a sufficient argument for every claim to faith I have.

What is one remedy I could use even amongst the bleakest of times where I can trust the church?
Click to expand...
listen to your soul
 
Ben_Sinner said:
So I’m pretty sure its been noticeable the last couple of days…

I have been struggling with all kinds of different theories that contradict the church. I don’t know how I got myself in this situation.

So I ask…how can I trust the church over all these philosophers?

How can I just say ‘no’ to these theories? Solipsism, Nominalism, “God is impossibly logical”, etc. etc.

There are so many out there that seem to prove that our religion is illogical.

I’m not a philosopher (nor intend to be), so my intelligence is far below these guys and I’m worried that there is a sufficient argument for every claim to faith I have.

What is one remedy I could use even amongst the bleakest of times where I can trust the church?
Click to expand...
How old are you?

If you are very young, it is easy to be intimidated by brilliant philosophers who write against God and the Church.

If you are older, this suggests to me that you have been reading too many of those philosophers and not enough of Christian apologetics.

In either case, time to don your warrior garb and march for Christ. 👍

Talk to your priest. He can direct you to the right sources, whether books on apologetics, or people in your parish who have been through what you are going through.
 
Ben_Sinner said:
So I’m pretty sure its been noticeable the last couple of days…

I have been struggling with all kinds of different theories that contradict the church. I don’t know how I got myself in this situation.

So I ask…how can I trust the church over all these philosophers?

How can I just say ‘no’ to these theories? Solipsism, Nominalism, “God is impossibly logical”, etc. etc.

There are so many out there that seem to prove that our religion is illogical.

I’m not a philosopher (nor intend to be), so my intelligence is far below these guys and I’m worried that there is a sufficient argument for every claim to faith I have.

What is one remedy I could use even amongst the bleakest of times where I can trust the church?
Click to expand...
God tells us to flee temptations. Obviously these " philosophies " are a temptation to your faith. So stop paying any attention to them, don’t read about them, don’t watch videos that they give, don’t listen to debates they have. You are not called to engage in debates, because you don’t have the facility to do it. Leave that to those who know how and who can take the punches.

All you have to do is follow the Church. Let her be your light and don’t worry about anything else. The Catechism is linked below. And of course you have to pray, receive the Sacraments and try to live a good life. That’s it for you my friend.

Pax
Linus2nd
 
Ben_Sinner said:
So I’m pretty sure its been noticeable the last couple of days…

I have been struggling with all kinds of different theories that contradict the church. I don’t know how I got myself in this situation.

So I ask…how can I trust the church over all these philosophers?

How can I just say ‘no’ to these theories? Solipsism, Nominalism, “God is impossibly logical”, etc. etc.

There are so many out there that seem to prove that our religion is illogical.

I’m not a philosopher (nor intend to be), so my intelligence is far below these guys and I’m worried that there is a sufficient argument for every claim to faith I have.

What is one remedy I could use even amongst the bleakest of times where I can trust the church?
Click to expand...
Reason alone is not enough. That is why God broke into history. He sent His Son to testify to the Truth. His Son was put to death. The Son rose again.
 
As to the first, Solipism is nuts; you have to believe something other than your own consciousness exists or you’ll go crazy. A good way to not worry about this is to remember that whoever it was that thought up this philosophy was not you, and that this idea would not have occurred to you without reading about them; hence, both they and you must exist.

The second, nominalism, says that abstract concepts, like goodness, for example, can’t exist- that words like “goodness” are simply useful labels. This runs contrary to what you yourself know to be true! If you asked a man living in New York City if saving an innocent child from drowning was good or bad, he would say good. An indigenous Indian living in the Amazon would say the same thing. Clearly a universal concept of good exists. But how do we know what’s good? There must be some standard by which one may measure “goodness.” This is one of the traditional proofs of God from Aquinas. The same goes with such transcendentals as beauty and truth.

As to God being logically impossible, I’d have to ask them to prove that, because I’ve never seen any water-holding proof stating that God could not possibly exist.

I don’t claim to be a philosopher either, and these probably aren’t the normal refutations of these philosophies; they’re just what I came up with from my own logic. I’d recommend looking up the actual Catholic perspective on these things. Best of luck!
 
Moreover, my best advice is to pray, pray, pray and stick close to the sacraments. Te best defense against any form of evil or confusion is to entrust yourself to the hands of God.
 
OneSmallFlower said:
Moreover, my best advice is to pray, pray, pray and stick close to the sacraments. Te best defense against any form of evil or confusion is to entrust yourself to the hands of God.
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This is my advice as well.

Prayer is less confusing and more beneficial. Philosophy is talking about God. Prayer is spending time i God. What could be better than spending time with the one you love?

If you don’t know how to pray then learn. Learn to be still. Learn to love silence. Learn to converse with God. Seek out an experienced guide who can help you.

-Tim-
 
I have also heard stuff like this: How do I refute this?

*Religions begin with a set of unquestionable truths, and then seek to justify the world around them in light of these truths. On the other hand, there are no “truths” in science that are unquestionable. The scientist first examines the universe, then asks questions, then analyzes data, and then—if the data allows—makes a conclusion.

So with religion, the universe must fit the idea. But with science, the idea must fit the universe.*

recoveringfundamentalists.com/misconception-2-theories-require-faith-to-believe
 
Ben_Sinner said:
So I’m pretty sure its been noticeable the last couple of days…

I have been struggling with all kinds of different theories that contradict the church. I don’t know how I got myself in this situation.

So I ask…how can I trust the church over all these philosophers?

How can I just say ‘no’ to these theories? Solipsism, Nominalism, “God is impossibly logical”, etc. etc.

There are so many out there that seem to prove that our religion is illogical.

I’m not a philosopher (nor intend to be), so my intelligence is far below these guys and I’m worried that there is a sufficient argument for every claim to faith I have.

What is one remedy I could use even amongst the bleakest of times where I can trust the church?
Click to expand...
Belief in Jesus Christ, read l Cor:I: l8-31, also l Cor;2: l-l6
 
Linusthe2nd said:
God tells us to flee temptations. Obviously these " philosophies " are a temptation to your faith. So stop paying any attention to them, don’t read about them, don’t watch videos that they give, don’t listen to debates they have. You are not called to engage in debates, because you don’t have the facility to do it. Leave that to those who know how and who can take the punches.
Click to expand...
“But I do not feel obliged to believe that that same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended to forgo their use…”

-Galileo

While I’m not weighing in on what OP should think, telling him/her to just bury his/her head and not think about it is, well, sad. And I, along with the few folks I’ve talked to who have dropped religion, went through a “just don’t think about it” phase. It’s really not so simple- if you think your beliefs might be unsound, you’ll eventuality need to weigh the evidence on your own.
 
Ben_Sinner said:
I have also heard stuff like this: How do I refute this?

*Religions begin with a set of unquestionable truths, and then seek to justify the world around them in light of these truths. On the other hand, there are no “truths” in science that are unquestionable. The scientist first examines the universe, then asks questions, then analyzes data, and then—if the data allows—makes a conclusion.

So with religion, the universe must fit the idea. But with science, the idea must fit the universe.*

recoveringfundamentalists.com/misconception-2-theories-require-faith-to-believe
Click to expand...
This is a common rhetorical tactic among secularists to discredit religion. We are not supposed to “never question” or not think for ourselves. This statement also ignores the fact that the Church has written whole libraries of reasons why she teaches what she does. And in this age of information, ignorance is a choice. They are not “unquestionable truths”. In my case, thinking for myself led me to Catholicism. Also, I have an atheist friend that called Aquinas a “master of critical thinking”.

On the latter half of their argument, see how they react when someone brings up climate change or evolution. Granted, I don’t deny either of them, but they get defensive and excommunicate anyone who so much as questions those two things. For a less controversial example, say a respected scientist questioned the existence of cells or atoms. The scientific community would think him a lunatic, despite the fact that he questions the status quo.

Third: if the scientific method is the only way we can know truth, then we would have to be able to prove it using the scientific method. Is that possible? No, it is a philosophical axiom. And of course, Stephen Hawking says that “philosophy is dead”, and Neil DeGrasse Tyson said it is “not worth our time”.

Can you measure an idea with a ruler, or isolate a thought in a test tube? Can you look at morality under a miscroscope, or examine philosophy in the field? According to their own worldview, if no, then these thing do not exist.

Another thing about science: unless you have master’s degree on every field of science, you are “just taking someone’s word for it”. The average person does not have the time, the money, the equipment, or the know-how to conclude that the sun 93 million miles from Earth, therefore one simply has to accept the word of a competent authority.
 
STUDY PHYSICS INSTEAD OF PHILOSOPHY, of which EInstien said philosophy is beautiful but useless, like writing with honey. There are fine apologists with physics backgrounds. Lay off the honey. Live the love. It’s God-affirming. Talk to God. Ask HIM your big questions without doubt. Thank God.
 
AnimalSpirits said:
“But I do not feel obliged to believe that that same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended to forgo their use…”

-Galileo

While I’m not weighing in on what OP should think, telling him/her to just bury his/her head and not think about it is, well, sad. And I, along with the few folks I’ve talked to who have dropped religion, went through a “just don’t think about it” phase. It’s really not so simple- if you think your beliefs might be unsound, you’ll eventuality need to weigh the evidence on your own.
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Well, hallelujah! Given our feuding history here, you and I agree on something! 👍

Turning a blind eye doesn’t solve anything, OP. You have to examine your faith, look at it, see if anything doesn’t add up. In a way, I’m thankful for atheists; I learned more about my faith and grew in it in all the long hours poring over the arguments of atheists than I have nodding cozily over cigars with the Catholic campus group. It has helped me sort out what I do and do not believe.

That said, look for answers. Don’t be afraid to ask the hard questions here. If there’s an objection to the faith that’s bothering you, ask it! That’s why these forums exist! But, be sure not to confuse true philosophy with the blather of neckbearded combox warriors who can dish it but can’t take it. Don’t be afraid to admit you don’t know.
 
TimothyH said:
This is my advice as well.

Prayer is less confusing and more beneficial. Philosophy is talking about God. Prayer is spending time i God. What could be better than spending time with the one you love?

If you don’t know how to pray then learn. Learn to be still. Learn to love silence. Learn to converse with God. Seek out an experienced guide who can help you.

-Tim-
Click to expand...
Meant to say, "prayer is spending time with God.
 
AnimalSpirits said:
“But I do not feel obliged to believe that that same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended to forgo their use…”

-Galileo

While I’m not weighing in on what OP should think, telling him/her to just bury his/her head and not think about it is, well, sad. And I, along with the few folks I’ve talked to who have dropped religion, went through a “just don’t think about it” phase. It’s really not so simple- if you think your beliefs might be unsound, you’ll eventuality need to weigh the evidence on your own.
Click to expand...
And I wish you hadn’t interferred, there are plenty of threads you could experess these thoughts. You probably don’t recognize you have a problem, but you do. And part of your problem is you lack humility. Ben’s problem is far different from yours and I hope he has sense to completely ignore your comments

What about the Christians before the age of philosophy, before the age of science? Do you think they were idiots? Read the Fathers and tell me they were idiots, that they had no reason for their faith.

Linus2nd
 
Take heart from the great scientists of the past who have no quarrel with the existence of God. If they are all wrong, why is the New Atheism so right?

SCIENTISTS ON RELIGION

Nicolaus Copernicus Heliocentric Theory of the Solar System

“The universe has been wrought for us by a supremely good and orderly Creator.”

Johannes Kepler Kepler’s Laws of Planetary Motions

“[May] God who is most admirable in his works … deign to grant us the grace to bring to light and illuminate the profundity of his wisdom in the visible (and accordingly intelligible) creation of this world.”

Galileo Galilei Laws of Dynamics

“The Holy Bible and the phenomenon of nature proceed alike from the divine Word.”

Isaac Newton Laws of Thermodynamics, Optics, etc.

“This most beautiful system [the solar system] could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.” Isaac Newton

Benjamin Franklin Electricity, Bifocals, etc.

”Here is my creed. I believe in one God, the creator of the universe. That he governs by his providence. That he ought to be worshipped.

James Clerk Maxwell Electromagnetism, Maxwell’s Equations

“I have looked into most philosophical systems and I have seen none that will not work without God.”

Lord William Kelvin Laws of Thermodynamics, absolute temperature scale

“I believe that the more thoroughly science is studied, the further does it take us from anything comparable to atheism.”

Charles Darwin Theory of Evolution

“There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” Origin of the Species, 1872 (last edition before Darwin’s death).

Louis Pasteur Germ Theory

“The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator.”

Max Planck Father of Quantum Physics

“There can never be any real opposition between religion and science; for the one is the complement of the other.”

J.J. Thompson Discoverer of the Electron

“In the distance tower still higher peaks which will yield to those who ascend them still wider prospects and deepen the feeling whose truth is emphasized by every advance in science, that great are the works of the Lord.”

Werner Heisenberg Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle

“In the course of my life I have been repeatedly compelled to ponder the relationship of these two regions of thought (science and religion), for I have never been able to doubt the reality of that to which they point.”

Arthur Compton Compton Effect, Quantum Physicist

“For myself, faith begins with the realization that a supreme intelligence brought the universe into being and created man.”

Max Born Quantum Physicist
“Those who say that the study of science makes a man an atheist must be rather silly.”

Paul A.M. Dirac Quantum Physicist, Matter-Anti-Matter

“God is a mathematician of a very high order and He used advanced mathematics in constructing the universe.”

George LeMaitre Father of the Big Bang Theory,
“There is no conflict between religion and science.” Reported by Duncan Aikman, New York Times, 1933

Albert Einstein Special and General Theories of Relativity

“The fanatical atheists are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against traditional religion as the ‘opium of the masses’—cannot hear the music of the spheres.”
 
Ben_Sinner said:
I have also heard stuff like this: How do I refute this?

*Religions begin with a set of unquestionable truths, and then seek to justify the world around them in light of these truths. On the other hand, there are no “truths” in science that are unquestionable. The scientist first examines the universe, then asks questions, then analyzes data, and then—if the data allows—makes a conclusion.

So with religion, the universe must fit the idea. But with science, the idea must fit the universe.*

recoveringfundamentalists.com/misconception-2-theories-require-faith-to-believe
Click to expand...
Hi Ben,

I’ve been there. Whenever you go to the source of some new ideas the source makes it sound good and everything else sounds ridiculous. Then you go to the next one and find the first idea sounds ridiculous and this new one has the answer. Its good to be aware of this bias when you research.

I would point you to 1 Thessalonians 5:19-22, particularly the part about “testing all things”. I eventually came to the conclusion that the Truth (capital T with an “absolute” at the front) does not mind being questioned when those questions are sincere and done in good faith.

Also, Philipians 4:8-9 8Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things. 9The things you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.

There’s no need to stress about it all. But we should focus on finding the truly holy and pure stuff and thinking on that. The rest is literally gobbledy-goo from left over nothing (the technical phrase, I think)

Science vs religion? It’s like apples vs rocket science. Religion has a few more things to take into account besides the just the universe (sounds funny, right?) while science is working with limited resources in a relatively small time frame. Same goes for our minds. It reminds me of a Chesterton quote-

“The poet only asks to get his head into the heavens. It is the logician who seeks to get the heavens into his head. And it is his head that splits."
 
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