Turning away from the Sacraments

[e_c]

Faith is not just an act of the intellect… it is also an act of the will. If the will is afflicted, the intellect can’t do it on its own.

FWIW.

I remember a story told about Sheen - he was on an airplane and the man next to him started talking about some doctrinal issue that had driven him out of the Church. After the bishop got a sense of the guy, he asked, “So what did you steal?” The man had stolen a car and could not bring himself to go to confession. (And I think then reconciled after that encounter!)

 

[Don_Ruggero]

How one Christian sect (denomination) can baptize a person already baptized is beyond me. It reveals either utter contempt for the sect in which the original baptism occurred, or alternatively the second ‘baptism’ ceremony is being used as a means to publicly (symbolically) renounce the Catholicism of the person concerned.

That one who taught the faith could undergo such a process is extraordinary - moreso than the change of denomination itself.

Perhaps the OP might talk with this person and enquire how / why she is pursuing a second baptism.

Frankly, it is not remarkable to me at all. Those to whom she has gone have a very different concept of the nature and effects of baptism than we do. They are not approaching this from the perspective of Catholic theology but from their theology…which is their prerogative. Similarly, when we are examining a baptism for issues of validity/invalidity, our determination is based on our theology. And there are assuredly cases where we determine that the baptism was invalid and there is a need for an absolute, not conditional, baptism.

 

[Rau]

Frankly, it is not remarkable to me at all. Those to whom she has gone have a very different concept of the nature and effects of baptism than we do. They are not approaching this from the perspective of Catholic theology but from their theology…which is their prerogative. Similarly, when we are examining a baptism for issues of validity/invalidity, our determination is based on our theology. And there are assuredly cases where we determine that the baptism was invalid and there is a need for an absolute, not conditional, baptism.

Which is entirely reasonable, in so far as the sect is concerned. But I was not aware that baptism was held by other Christian sects to require other than the the use of water and the appropriate words.

If someone is familiar with baptism as understood by this particular sect, perhaps they can outline why they hold no (or some?) prior baptism can be valid. Perhaps they require that the one baptized be adult and able to choose baptism?

 

[Della]

Which is entirely reasonable, in so far as the sect is concerned. But I was not aware that baptism was held by other Christian sects to require other than the the use of water and the appropriate words.

If someone is familiar with baptism as understood by this particular sect, perhaps they can outline why they hold no (or some?) prior baptism can be valid. Perhaps they require that the one baptized be adult and able to choose baptism?

As one who was once a member of the Assemblies of God I think I can answer this for you. The Assemblies of God doesn’t recognize baptism as an initial sacrament. Indeed, they hold to no sacraments at all. They only recognize two “ordinances” as valid. Indeed, their baptism does nothing to the person’s soul or remove sin. It’s strictly a public statement of faith that one has “accepted Jesus as one’s personal Lord and Savior.” In reality, it makes baptism ineffective and redundant, but that’s what they believe.

 

[Rau]

As one who was once a member of the Assemblies of God I think I can answer this for you. The Assemblies of God doesn’t recognize baptism as an initial sacrament. Indeed, they hold to no sacraments at all. They only recognize two “ordinances” as valid. Indeed, their baptism does nothing to the person’s soul or remove sin. It’s strictly a public statement of faith that one has “accepted Jesus as one’s personal Lord and Savior.” In reality, it makes baptism ineffective and redundant, but that’s what they believe.

Do they call the ceremony baptism?

 

[Oneofthewomen]

My friend did.

 

[Della]

Do they call the ceremony baptism?

Yes. Confusing, isn’t it?

 

[Cassianus]

Just so you know, traditionalist orthodox also re-baptize catholics & protestants by 3 immersions. They say the western conception of baptism arose after the conflict with the donatists but that the traditional teaching in the east was that baptism must be performed by someone orthodox, according to their rite. Although some disagree with it these days.

But if she left the church only because she didn’t feel she had enough christian fellowship in her current parish; why didn’t she leave for another parish?
She wouldn’t if she didn’t already doubt the faith or didn’t know it enough?

 

[Della]

Just so you know, traditionalist orthodox also re-baptize catholics & protestants by 3 immersions. They say the western conception of baptism arose after the conflict with the donatists but that the traditional teaching in the east was that baptism must be performed by someone orthodox, according to their rite. Although some disagree with it these days.

Of course the Catholic Church disagrees with this since she does not rebaptize at all. She conditionally baptizes those whose baptisms seem to have been invalid.

But if she left the church only because she didn’t feel she had enough christian fellowship in her current parish; why didn’t she leave for another parish?
She wouldn’t if she didn’t already doubt the faith or didn’t know it enough?

Of course, we cannot know all that was in her heart. Some non-Catholic groups are very good at making people in mainline churches doubt the teachings of their ecclesial communities. And when someone is dissatisfied, for reasons that cannot be articulated, they can be easy prey. When I was in the Assemblies of God it was filled with former Catholics, some who claimed to know the Catholic faith very well and to have been devout in their faith. So, only God knows just what they understood and the disposition of their hearts and minds when they left the Church.

 

[fred_conty]

My friend did.

Some consider baptism as a form of joining their individual church so they require baptism without exception.

When a person has their feelings hurt, that translates into rejection, and so leaves to find acceptance.

Psalm 30
…let your face shine upon your servant, in your kindness, save me.

 

[PassingSoul]

Some consider baptism as a form of joining their individual church so they require baptism without exception.

When a person has their feelings hurt, that translates into rejection, and so leaves to find acceptance.

Pew Research:

Both the mainline and historically black Protestant traditions have lost more members than they have gained through religious switching, but within Christianity the greatest net losses, by far, have been experienced by Catholics. Nearly one-third of American adults (31.7%) say they were raised Catholic. Among that group, fully 41% no longer identify with Catholicism. This means that 12.9% of American adults are former Catholics, while just 2% of U.S. adults have converted to Catholicism from another religious tradition.

 

[PaulfromIowa]

Someone said that the biggest religious group in the US is Catholics and the second biggest is ex-Catholics.

 

[LatinRight]

Pew Research:

Both the mainline and historically black Protestant traditions have lost more members than they have gained through religious switching, but within Christianity the greatest net losses, by far, have been experienced by Catholics. Nearly one-third of American adults (31.7%) say they were raised Catholic. Among that group, fully 41% no longer identify with Catholicism. This means that 12.9% of American adults are former Catholics, while just 2% of U.S. adults have converted to Catholicism from another religious tradition.

**Blessings PassingSoul,

The above statistic clearly shows our unbelievable failure.

We can say, Dr. Peter Krreeft in his book explains the reason of our above situation.

YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THE BIBLE by Peter Kreeft

Peter Kreeft is one of the most popular and widely-read Catholic authors of today.

Peter Kreeft is on The Advisory Board of the Catholic Education Resource Center.

“Highly recommended to all those who want to deepen their spiritual lives.

The beauty of this book is that it literally makes the [Bible] come to alive.” – John A.

Harden, S.J. Author, The Catholic Catechism.

Quote from pages 230, 248, 249.

“The mistakes of the Corinthians were mistakes of addition; the mistakes of the Galatians

was subtraction. The Corinthians had polluted the gospel. …

The Galatians had abandoned it for another religion, “a different gospel.”

Many religiously uneducated Catholics still believe this Galatian heresy today (Gal.1:6-9).

No mistake could be more serious. Yet as we shall see, this is the single most common

mistake in the Church today.

Not a small minority but a large majority of the Catholics today not only don’t know the

basic doctrines of the Catholic theology anymore, they don’t even know how to get to Heaven!

Until this unbelievable failure is remedied, it is pointless to pray to God for ecumenical

peace and reunion between Christian churches.

It is not clear that one who does not even know how to get to Heaven can accurately be called a Christian.

I am not suggesting, as many Protestant Fundamentalists do, that most Catholics are not saved.

But I am suggesting that perhaps most will be saved as good pagans, as “anonymous

Christians” rather than as Catholic Christians.” End quote.

The truth is, we know our situations.

The question is: What we do with it?

We act as everything is fine and put our unbelievable failure under our carpets or we deal with it head on.

If we don’t act to correct our failure the above situation will continue or even get worse.

Blessings

latinRight**