Two Natures of Christ

[CollegeKid]

I’ve been reading Archbishop Fulton Sheen’s The Priest is Not His Own and Frank Sheed’s A Map of Life. I’ve enjoyed both so far, and as any good book does, they have both provoked me to serious thought and even confusion and some intellectual discomfort. Bear in mind I consider this a strong point for a book because it would seem to indicate that I’m actually learning something new about my faith, something profound, not just passively taking in information I already know. All that said, here is my first question:

1. Both Sheed and Sheen make the point that Christ is One Divine Person, God, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. They then clarify that he has two natures-divine and human. They further clarify that this means that even though God the Son, the Second Person of the Trinity has a human body and soul, this does not mean that Christ is in any way a** human person**. He is only the Divine Person, God the Son, with a human nature perfectly united to His Divine nature. With the presence of a human body and soul, though, how can there not be a human person? Thank you, and I’ll post my next question in another thread.

 

[Allen537]

This seems a bit odd. It is important to remember that Jesus Chirst is BOTH fully human and fully divine. His divinity in no way overshadowed his humanity and vice-versa. It is theologically important to salvation history that Christ be fully human and fully divine. In order for Christ to reconcile us to the Father, in order for his sacrifice to meet its fullest meaning, Christ had to be as human as you and I, and at the same time be as divine as His Father. It was through Christ being the perfect human that he was made to be the perfect sacrifice made pleasing to the Father. In other words, Christ must be pefectly human and perfectly divine inorder to overcome the barrier (sin) that had seperated humans from God.

 

[Pjs2ejs]

This is truly one of the great mysteries of Christ and is hard for someone like myself to fully understand either. I trust the Church that Jesus instituted in giving me the truth.

What about the Trinity? That’s a doozy.

And how about God “always was and always will be”? I had to just stop thinking about it. Ouch, it even hurts now thinking about it.

Good luck in your journey, it sounds like you are going about your faith in a very positive way.

God bless!!!

 

[CollegeKid]

Well, I agree, but the three-part point that these authors make is that:

(a) Christ is only a Divine Person: God the Son, Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, and that

(b) God the Son took up a human nature, the human body and soul of Jesus Christ, and made it completely His own, and that

(c) This human body and soul of Jesus Christ is in no way a separate, individual human person. Again, it is just a human nature. Apart from being united to the Divine nature of God the Son, there would be no Jesus Christ.

Sheen actually says: “The human nature was a garment with which He clothed His Divine Person or, rather, an *instrumentum conjunctum divinitatis *by which He acted on humanity. It was not a separable instrument, in the way in which a pencil is separable from the hand of the writer, but one eternally united to the Word, even now in Heaven, as the pledge, pattern and model of our resurrection and glory.”

My question: how can you have a human body united to a human soul and not call that a separate human person?

 

[water]

(c) This human body and soul of Jesus Christ is in no way a separate, individual human person. Again, it is just a human nature. Apart from being united to the Divine nature of God the Son, there would be no Jesus Christ.

Up until now, there are people who think Jesus started to know his real identity -as God - when He was older. This implies that those who thought like this seemed to separate completely Jesus’ human nature from His Divinity. Because as a human being, some might think, Jesus’ wisdom was developing as slowly as any child.

I don’t think that is right. Although Jesus was human like us. He truly knew He was God from the beginning, to the day he was in the Virgin’s Mary womb, and up until the present. As in the Bible say:

John 1: 1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word as with God, and the Word was God.”

John 1:14 “And the Word became flesh”

Maybe that was what the Bishop was trying to explain. I haven’t read what you read, and therefore, that’s what I could think of right now.

 

[CollegeKid]

Up until now, there are priests who think Jesus started to know his real identity -as God - when He was older. This implies that those who thought like this seemed to separate completely Jesus’ human nature from His Divinity.

And this may in fact be what I’ve been doing for some time, though how long I don’t know.

On the bright side, I may be coming to some vague glimpse of a reconcilliation here, however:

Jesus is *fully God *and fully man because He has a Divine nature and a human nature, but He is not a man. He is a Divine Person, God the Son.

I am a man in that I am a person with only a human nature, which results from the union of a body and soul.

Though God the Son has a human body and soul, they totally and completely belong to Him, so there is not a separate human person, just the human nature united to the Divine. The two natures are in one person: The Second Person of the Trinity. Again: Jesus is fully God and fully man (has the human nature) but He is not a man.

If I’m right (a big if), and I hope I’ve been clear, then its not altogether that hard to comprehend. After all, we’ve seen that God exists as three persons in one Divine Nature, why couldn’t one of those persons, each of whom are fully God, take up and unite to Himself another (human) nature?

 

[water]

why couldn’t one of those persons, each of whom are fully God, take up and unite to Himself another (human) nature?

Nothing is impossible to God. However, the mystery of the Trinity is something no man can fully understand. We understand each of the Person’s roles, but to answer why God choose not to, we don’t really know.

 

[thistle]

Well, I agree, but the three-part point that these authors make is that:

(a) Christ is only a Divine Person: God the Son, Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, and that

(b) God the Son took up a human nature, the human body and soul of Jesus Christ, and made it completely His own, and that

(c) This human body and soul of Jesus Christ is in no way a separate, individual human person. Again, it is just a human nature. Apart from being united to the Divine nature of God the Son, there would be no Jesus Christ.

Sheen actually says: “The human nature was a garment with which He clothed His Divine Person or, rather, an *instrumentum conjunctum divinitatis *by which He acted on humanity. It was not a separable instrument, in the way in which a pencil is separable from the hand of the writer, but one eternally united to the Word, even now in Heaven, as the pledge, pattern and model of our resurrection and glory.”

My question: how can you have a human body united to a human soul and not call that a separate human person?

As you know Frank Sheed’s works, have you read his book Theology For Beginners?
Chapter 11, pages 85 - 98 covers this.

 

[Spirithound]

Well, I agree, but the three-part point that these authors make is that:

(a) Christ is only a Divine Person: God the Son, Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, and that

(b) God the Son took up a human nature, the human body and soul of Jesus Christ, and made it completely His own, and that

(c) This human body and soul of Jesus Christ is in no way a separate, individual human person. Again, it is just a human nature. Apart from being united to the Divine nature of God the Son, there would be no Jesus Christ.

My question: how can you have a human body united to a human soul and not call that a separate human person?

The question here is a distinction between a nature and a person. Nature answers the “What?” question. For example, What is Spirithound? He is a human. What is the Holy Spirit? He is God. What is Jesus? He is God and human.
Person answers the “Who?” question. Example, Who is that student lurking in his dorm room? That is Spirithound. Who is God? the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
So, Jesus has two natures, God and human. However, if we look at God the Son, and Christ, the answer to the Who? question is the same. That is Jesus.

 

[Nita]

The question here is a distinction between a nature and a person. Nature answers the “What?” question. For example, What is Spirithound? He is a human. What is the Holy Spirit? He is God. What is Jesus? He is God and human.
Person answers the “Who?” question. Example, Who is that student lurking in his dorm room? That is Spirithound. Who is God? the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
So, Jesus has two natures, God and human. However, if we look at God the Son, and Christ, the answer to the Who? question is the same. That is Jesus.

Thanks Spirithound. That says it beautifully.

Nita