Two perspectves on the papal visit

[stmaria]

=MementoMori3283;3656742]… but what would you have His Holiness do, body slam Nancy Pelosi, drop kick Giuliani

I wouldn’t mind seeing that.

 

[MementoMori3283]

I wouldn’t mind seeing that.

yes, I did mean to put an emoticon with that reflection, maybe

 

[DustinsDad]

for me, it is not so much that, but what would you have His Holiness do, body slam Nancy Pelosi, drop kick Giuliani and set fire to the Kingdom Hall of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Christ taught always. On rare occasion, and only with leaders of His own religion, did He “attack”. I believe our last two popes have done an excellent job of teaching the faithful, Catholic and protestant alike, as well as the secular world, just as Jesus brought the message of hope to the woman at the well and her people. Benedict XVI and his predecessor of fond memory, John Paul II, have admonished those in the hierarchy of the Church and every pope moving forward will do the same. We may or may not know about it is all.

Would this be an attack:

“The broaderpurpose of dialogue is to discover the truth. What is the origin and destiny of mankind? What are good and evil? What awaits us at the end of our earthly existence? Only by addressing these deeper questions can we build a solid basis for the peace and security of the human family, for “wherever and whenever men and women are enlightened by the splendor of truth, they naturally set out on the path of peace…Confronted with these deeper questions concerning the origin and destiny of mankind, God has revealed the answer all of these questions in Jesus of Nazareth. He, **is the eternal Logos **who became flesh in order to reconcile man to God and reveal the underlying reason of all things. It is He whom we proclaim to all the religions of the word. The ardent desire to follow Him spurs us to proclaim Him to the world”
It’s such a simple shift from a third party neutral descriptive to the first party declaritive that makes a big difference. Check the way the Apostles spoke in Scriptures - check the way even Jesus spoke to the woman at the well - check the way the Church spoke for almost 2000 years.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[MementoMori3283]

Would this be an attack:

No, it is a declaration of the Truth and the hope that is in Christianity.Quite frankly, I don’t understand the purpose of your post. My post was in response to your post, in particular:

That just doesn’t sound like the language of the Church. It doesn’t sound confident. It doesn’t sound convinced.

You highlight these words and ask if it is an attack:

God has revealed the answer all of these questions in Jesus of Nazareth…is the eternal Logos…It is He whom we proclaim…proclaim Him to the world”

confident, convinced and language of the Church-gently

 

[Fitswimmer]

Sounds like he is inviting other others to consider He whom we profess as Lord and God in hopes that they will be convinced. If he were to beat them over the head, telling them what vile heretics they are and how they are all going to hell, I doubt anyone would listen. Just my two cents.

I got the same impression when I read it. It sounded to me like to the Pope, the purpose of dialogue with these other religions was to gently and lovingly lead them to the Truth.

I was led to the Church by the good example of Catholics in my life. There were people in my family, co-workers and friends who had something I wanted. None of them ever told me what a terrible sinner I was, none of them ever told me that I would burn in Hell for all eternity. They all showed me an example of what Christ had done for them and made me want to have what they had. I don’t know anyone who came to the faith out of fear or because they were insulted into it.

 

[DustinsDad]

No, it is a declaration of the Truth and the hope that is in Christianity.Quite frankly, I don’t understand the purpose of your post.

I see. The highlighted sections were* changes I made* to the speech. I was trying to see if you would consider such as an attack. Let me try this again…

Christ taught always. On rare occasion, and only with leaders of His own religion, did He “attack”. I believe our last two popes have done an excellent job of teaching the faithful, Catholic and protestant alike, as well as the secular world, just as Jesus brought the message of hope to the woman at the well and her people. Benedict XVI and his predecessor of fond memory, John Paul II, have admonished those in the hierarchy of the Church and every pope moving forward will do the same. We may or may not know about it is all.

I’m not talking about beating people over the head or drop kicking anyone - but just a shift of a couple of phrases from a *neutral sounding descriptive *to an authoritatve and declarative perspective changes things, I would say, quite a bit.

For example, here’s the originial portion from the pope’s actual interreligous speech:“…Confronted with these deeper questions concerning the origin and destiny of mankind, Christianity proposes Jesus of Nazareth. He, we believe, is the eternal Logos who became flesh in order to reconcile man to God and reveal the underlying reason of all things. It is he whom we bring to the forum of interreligious dialogue. The ardent desire to follow in his footsteps spurs Christians to open their minds and hearts in dialogue”

Now look at the subtle tweaking:“…Confronted with these deeper questions concerning the origin and destiny of mankind, God has revealed the answer in Jesus of Nazareth. **He, is the eternal Logos **who became flesh in order to reconcile man to God and reveal the underlying reason of all things. It is He whom we proclaim to all the religions of the word. The ardent desire to follow Him spurs us to proclaim Him to the world”It’s such a simple shift from a third party neutral descriptive to the first party declaritive that makes a big difference. Yet in the confusion of my earlier post, you didn’t even notice the difference, and you said such language was “confident, convinced and language of the Church-gently.” Evidently, not an attack at all. I agree

Check the way the Apostles spoke in Scriptures - check the way even Jesus spoke to the woman at the well - check the way the Church spoke for almost 2000 years. Here are just a couple of examples from the Scriptures:“Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified…Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.”
“The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and of this he has given assurance to all men by raising him from the dead.”
These words were spoken to non-Christians. I just wonder if such words were delivered to non-Christians today, would they be considered an “attack”, would they be considered “beating them over the head” - or would it be considered a bold proclamation of the Truth?

Could these words be spoken today? Have we lost our courage?

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[MementoMori3283]

For example, here’s the originial portion from the pope’s actual interreligous speech:

“…Confronted with these deeper questions concerning the origin and destiny of mankind, Christianity proposes Jesus of Nazareth. He, we believe, is the eternal Logos who became flesh in order to reconcile man to God and reveal the underlying reason of all things. It is he whom we bring to the forum of interreligious dialogue. The ardent desire to follow in his footsteps spurs Christians to open their minds and hearts in dialogue”

Now look at the subtle tweaking:

“…Confronted with these deeper questions concerning the origin and destiny of mankind, God has revealed the answer in Jesus of Nazareth. He, is the eternal Logos who became flesh in order to reconcile man to God and reveal the underlying reason of all things. It is He whom we proclaim to all the religions of the word. The ardent desire to follow Him spurs us to proclaim Him to the world”

I didn’t notice the change, but I would make a point and ask a question as to your tweaking. First, he was speaking to a specific group about a specific subject. Had he used your words I do not see any error but I see no problem with the words he chose. Second, if he had chosen your words would you have had issue with something else?

 

[latinmass]

I didn’t notice the change, but I would make a point and ask a question as to your tweaking. First, he was speaking to a specific group about a specific subject. Had he used your words I do not see any error but I see no problem with the words he chose. Second, if he had chosen your words would you have had issue with something else?

I humbly ask that you stop sidestepping and speak to DustinsDads specific points that were layed out to you. If you can’t respond to points made, don’t deflect to other issues. Thanks

 

[MementoMori3283]

I humbly ask that you stop sidestepping and speak to DustinsDads specific points that were layed out to you. If you can’t respond to points made, don’t deflect to other issues. Thanks

Sure thing latinmass - help a brother out and let me know what I’m sidestepping -

DD has stated that he agrees with article 1 and would like to have some hope as in article 2

DustinsDad:

These words were spoken to non-Christians. I just wonder if such words were delivered to non-Christians today, would they be considered an “attack”, would they be considered “beating them over the head” - or would it be considered a bold proclamation of the Truth?

Could these words be spoken today? Have we lost our courage?

I believe the Church never stops speaking these words and many others. How they are delivered can be considered an “attack” or “beating over the head”, and they are most certainly, to those who God has called to faith in His Son, Jesus Christ, a bold proclamation of the Truth. Only, for reasons known only to God, everyone has not been called. You see, hopefully, that it is our job to witness. It remains, as always and forever, an action of the Holy Spirit to convert hearts.

As long as the Church exists, and by promise of Jesus that is forever, these words are spoken today. Courage has not been abandoned, it remains lit on a hilltop in Rome.

 

[latinmass]

Sure thing latinmass - help a brother out and let me know what I’m sidestepping -

DD has stated that he agrees with article 1 and would like to have some hope as in article 2

I believe the Church never stops speaking these words and many others. How they are delivered can be considered an “attack” or “beating over the head”, and they are most certainly, to those who God has called to faith in His Son, Jesus Christ, a bold proclamation of the Truth. Only, for reasons known only to God, everyone has not been called. You see, hopefully, that it is our job to witness. It remains, as always and forever, an action of the Holy Spirit to convert hearts.

As long as the Church exists, and by promise of Jesus that is forever, these words are spoken today. Courage has not been abandoned, it remains lit on a hilltop in Rome.

Would the words from Jesus “Repent and be baptized everyone of you for the remission of sins” etc. be considered an attack today if Pope B. spoke them is the question. The words of Jesus must be spoken the same way in all times. Disagreeing with this has huge ramifications, and the reason why there is so much ignorance of truth in the world is because His words have been watered down similar to what DD has pointed out.

 

[MementoMori3283]

Would the words from Jesus “Repent and be baptized everyone of you for the remission of sins” etc. be considered an attack today if Pope B. spoke them is the question. The words of Jesus must be spoken the same way in all times. Disagreeing with this has huge ramifications, and the reason why there is so much ignorance of truth in the world is because His words have been watered down similar to what DD has pointed out.

and no is the answer

Jesus never spoke the words “repent and be baptized for the remission of sins” Peter spoke those words and he spoke them to the men of Israel, not an interreligious gathering. Context, keep events in there context.

What fruit would be born to tell the Grand Rebbe these words of Peter, “Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. This man was handed over to you by God’s set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross,” or, “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”?

 

[latinmass]

and no is the answer

Jesus never spoke the words “repent and be baptized for the remission of sins” Peter spoke those words and he spoke them to the men of Israel, not an interreligious gathering. Context, keep events in there context.

What fruit would be born to tell the Grand Rebbe these words of Peter, “Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. This man was handed over to you by God’s set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross,” or, “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”?

Of course He did. St. Peter, St. Paul, St. John, Jesus, all they spoke, all they wrote,(the ones that wrote, before you get knit picky again) are all God’s words. There is only one way to salvation, through Jesus Christ, the Son. If you don’t have the Son, you don’t have the Father. Which people are these words for? Which context is every knee will bow to Jesus? These words are for all people for all times. The micromanagement of pc is all to please man not God. I can’t think of better words at a ecumenical gathering to use. Can you?

 

[MementoMori3283]

Of course He did. St. Peter, St. Paul, St. John, Jesus, all they spoke, all they wrote,(the ones that wrote, before you get knit picky again) are all God’s words. There is only one way to salvation, through Jesus Christ, the Son. If you don’t have the Son, you don’t have the Father. Which people are these words for? Which context is every knee will bow to Jesus? These words are for all people for all times. The micromanagement of pc is all to please man not God. I can’t think of better words at a ecumenical gathering to use. Can you?

now I ask you to stop sidestepping and speak to specific points

and I’ll make it clear, What fruit would be born to tell the Grand Rebbe these words of Peter, "Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. This man was handed over to you by God’s set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross,"

We should all take the lesson of Jesus who requested we first remove the plank from our own eye so we can see more clearly the speck in our brother’s eye.

Free will, my brother, free will.

Do you believe that the pope should make people bend their knee to Jesus? Do you think it is not the work of the Holy Spirit to convert men’s hearts? If you don’t have the Son, you don’t have the Father, but, no one comes to the Son unless the Father beckons him!

I do not see the pope as being pc. Everyone in these fora and at ecumenical gatherings knows the pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth and that the Church has stood solid for 2000 years on the deposit of faith given Her.

So if you are saying the words to use at an ecumenical gathering are, “There is only one way to salvation, through Jesus Christ, the Son. If you don’t have the Son, you don’t have the Father”, then what do you say to him who says I do not know this Jesus Christ?

Go to hell

 

[latinmass]

now I ask you to stop sidestepping and speak to specific points

and I’ll make it clear, What fruit would be born to tell the Grand Rebbe these words of Peter, "Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. This man was handed over to you by God’s set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross,"

We should all take the lesson of Jesus who requested we first remove the plank from our own eye so we can see more clearly the speck in our brother’s eye.

Free will, my brother, free will.

Do you believe that the pope should make people bend their knee to Jesus? Do you think it is not the work of the Holy Spirit to convert men’s hearts? If you don’t have the Son, you don’t have the Father, but, no one comes to the Son unless the Father beckons him!

I do not see the pope as being pc. Everyone in these fora and at ecumenical gatherings knows the pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth and that the Church has stood solid for 2000 years on the deposit of faith given Her.

So if you are saying the words to use at an ecumenical gathering are, “There is only one way to salvation, through Jesus Christ, the Son. If you don’t have the Son, you don’t have the Father”, then what do you say to him who says I do not know this Jesus Christ?

Go to hell

I’ll start with your misquote of Jesus. The speck in the eye, keep reading, it goes on to say then you’ll see clear to instruct your brother. I’m glad to see you quote Jesus though, are you sure Jesus was not just talking to Israelites here, or is this to everyone? Somethings are more specific to Jews yes, like what you continue referencing, it would be more fruitful for your Grand Rebbe or Hindu or Muslim to hear the rest. When they say they don’t know Jesus, I’ll say, " let me tell you about Him." The great commission for us to go and baptize in all nations still stands, it is the Holy Spirit who brings others to salvation, with the Holy Spirit working through us to tell all the truth.

 

[MementoMori3283]

I’ll start with your misquote of Jesus. The speck in the eye, keep reading, it goes on to say then you’ll see clear to instruct your brother. I’m glad to see you quote Jesus though, are you sure Jesus was not just talking to Israelites here, or is this to everyone? Somethings are more specific to Jews yes, like what you continue referencing, it would be more fruitful for your Grand Rebbe or Hindu or Muslim to hear the rest. When they say they don’t know Jesus, I’ll say, " let me tell you about Him." The great commission for us to go and baptize in all nations still stands, it is the Holy Spirit who brings others to salvation, with the Holy Spirit working through us to tell all the truth.

thank you, I can see you are one of those people who get it

 

[Our_Refuge]

=DustinsDad;3659719]I see. The highlighted sections were* changes I made* to the speech. I was trying to see if you would consider such as an attack. Let me try this again…
For example, here’s the originial portion from the pope’s actual interreligous speech:
“…Confronted with these deeper questions concerning the origin and destiny of mankind, Christianity proposes Jesus of Nazareth. He, we believe, is the eternal Logos who became flesh in order to reconcile man to God and reveal the underlying reason of all things. It is he whom we bring to the forum of interreligious dialogue. The ardent desire to follow in his footsteps spurs Christians to open their minds and hearts in dialogue”

Now look at the subtle tweaking:
“…Confronted with these deeper questions concerning the origin and destiny of mankind, **God has revealed the answer in Jesus of Nazareth. **He, is the eternal Logos who became flesh in order to reconcile man to God and reveal the underlying reason of all things. It is He whom we proclaim to all the religions of the word. The ardent desire to follow Him spurs us to proclaim Him to the world”
I’m not talking about beating people over the head or drop kicking anyone - but just a shift of a couple of phrases from a *neutral sounding descriptive *to an authoritatve and declarative perspective changes things, I would say, quite a bit.

You should contact the Vatican and see if the Pope needs a speech writer. Your suggestion to say that "God has revealed the answer in Jesus…"instead of "Christianity proposes Jesus " is right on. It is more authoritatve and is in fact an infallible statement right out of the mouth of the Vicar of Christ. They all propose to believe in God, but not in Christianity, so in a very clear way it would challenge their faith.

 

[DustinsDad]

…What fruit would be born to tell the Grand Rebbe these words of Peter, “Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. This man was handed over to you by God’s set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross,” or, “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”?

I’d focus more along the lines of "
Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him."
Or perhaps something like
“There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
Or maybe even
“Jesus is the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by Him.”
The fruits of such an approach? Oh I don’t know, saving a soul from the clutches of Satan. Eternal life rather than eternal death. That sort of thing.

…Do you believe that the pope should make people bend their knee to Jesus?

Forced conversion? Good grief. The fact that otherwise faithful catholics now associate direct calls to conversion with forced conversion is both ridiculous and sad.

…Do you think it is not the work of the Holy Spirit to convert men’s hearts?

Absolutely - and we are members of the Body of Christ who must also cooperate with the graces of the Holy Spirit…the Church must speak with authority and issue the call. The marching orders have been given:
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.” (Matt 28:18-20)
And these marching orders are for all time, in season and out of season. You seem to want to put God to the test here…but it’s clear He But anticipation of rejection can’t be an excuse to muffle or water down the call to conversion. And make no mistake…clear proclamation of the Gospel will result in much rejection from the world.
John 15:18-20
"If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, `A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you; if they kept my word, they will keep yours also. But all this they will do to you on my account, because they do not know him who sent me.
I don’t know about you, but when the world applauds the pope, but the applause is not followed by conversion, something’s a little off kilter.

…If you don’t have the Son, you don’t have the Father, but, no one comes to the Son unless the Father beckons him!

And He is in ways we cannot even see. But He also is becks them using the mouths of the faithful in His Church. For the latter, we all must cooperate with His grace. Free will and all.

(continued below)

 

[DustinsDad]

(continued from above)

…I do not see the pope as being pc. Everyone in these fora and at ecumenical gatherings knows the pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth and that the Church has stood solid for 2000 years on the deposit of faith given Her.

I disagree. I think the ecumenical and interreligious dialogue has helped to promote the erronious notion that the deposit of faith changes with the times…that the Church no longer believes in the necessity of conversion to Christ in His Church for salvation.

…So if you are saying the words to use at an ecumenical gathering are, “There is only one way to salvation, through Jesus Christ, the Son. If you don’t have the Son, you don’t have the Father”, then what do you say to him who says I do not know this Jesus Christ? Go to hell

No, I’d say, “Please don’t go to Hell - know Jesus Christ. He is the only remedy for Hell.”

Make no mistake my friend, Hell is real.
2 Thesseloinians 1:6-10
Seeing it is a just thing with God to repay tribulation to them that trouble you: And to you who are troubled, rest with us when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven, with the angels of his power: In a flame of fire, giving vengeance to them who know not God, and who obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Who shall suffer eternal punishment in destruction, from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his power: When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be made wonderful in all them who have believed; because our testimony was believed upon you in that day.

*Jude 1:11-15
*Woe unto them, for they have gone in the way of Cain: and after the error of Balaam they have for reward poured out themselves, and have perished in the contradiction of Core. These are spots in their banquets, feasting together without fear, feeding themselves, clouds without water, which are carried about by winds, trees of the autumn, unfruitful, twice dead, plucked up by the roots, Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own confusion; wandering stars, to whom the storm of darkness is reserved for ever. Now of these Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying: Behold, the Lord cometh with thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to reprove all the ungodly for all the works of their ungodliness, whereby they have done ungodly, and of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against God.

Revelation 20:15
and if any one’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:27
But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
We need to meditate on this a little more I think. Might make our calls to conversion a little more, eh, explicit.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad