Two Questions

[David123]

Here are two questions I was asked and unable to answer very well. Any help is greatly appreciated!

1. To support ‘eternal’ security’, a friend quoted John 10:27-29 which states,

My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. (NIV)

The point this person was making is that “nobody” includes all other people as well as yourself, meaning that not even you yourself can take yourself out of the Father’s hand, ie. salvation. I know that we need to take the Bible as a whole when making claims such as this, but I don’t think the other person understands that and thus I’m trying to deal with this passage specifically. How should I respond?

1. To support the proposition that ‘Mary was a sinner’, my friend quoted Leviticus 12:1-4, 6-8:

The LORD said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites: ‘A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period. On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised. Then the woman must wait thirty-three days to be purified from her bleeding. She must not touch anything sacred or go to the sanctuary until the days of her purification are over. When the days of her purification for a son or daughter are over, she is to bring to the priest at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting a year-old lamb for a burnt offering and a young pigeon or a dove for a sin offering. He shall offer them before the LORD to make atonement for her, and then she will be ceremonially clean from her flow of blood. These are the regulations for the woman who gives birth to a boy or a girl. If she cannot afford a lamb, she is to bring two doves or two young pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering. In this way the priest will make atonement for her, and she will be clean.’” (NIV, emphasis added)

So, the point was, that if Mary did these things after the birth of Jesus, she must have been a sinner in order to make a sin offering. Your thoughts?

Thanks for your help and pray for me as I’m becoming Catholic in eight days (as of April 7).

David

 

[Ted_CharlotteNC]

David123:

Here are two questions I was asked and unable to answer very well. Any help is greatly appreciated!

1. To support ‘eternal’ security’, a friend quoted John 10:27-29 which states,

The point this person was making is that “nobody” includes all other people as well as yourself, meaning that not even you yourself can take yourself out of the Father’s hand, ie. salvation. I know that we need to take the Bible as a whole when making claims such as this, but I don’t think the other person understands that and thus I’m trying to deal with this passage specifically. How should I respond?

Thanks for your help and pray for me as I’m becoming Catholic in eight days (as of April 7).

David

Congrats on joining the church and welcome home.

If I follow the use of the pronouns in the scripture quoted, it is clear Jesus is talking about obdient servants (sheep). The Lord used the sheeps and goats to illustrate the believers and non-believers. The believers do what the Lord asks and puts them on His right. The goats, well, they go on the left.

God is patient and kind and loving and offers grace to those that accept it. And to accept this grace, you must be willing to do as told.

I like your Mary question and look forward to a learned scholar’s answer.

 

[Della]

Here are two questions I was asked and unable to answer very well. Any help is greatly appreciated!

1. To support ‘eternal’ security’, a friend quoted John 10:27-29 which states,

Quote:
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. (NIV)

The point this person was making is that “nobody” includes all other people as well as yourself, meaning that not even you yourself can take yourself out of the Father’s hand, ie. salvation. I know that we need to take the Bible as a whole when making claims such as this, but I don’t think the other person understands that and thus I’m trying to deal with this passage specifically. How should I respond?

Well, this is hardly the only verse in the Bible that deals with salvation. It has to be balanced with every other biblical comment on the topic in order to be properly understood, from the strictly biblical perspective. But don’t get into a game of quotes with him. It never works. Unless and until he is willing to admit that the assumptions he brings to his reading of the Bible are coloring his interpretation, he’ll never give anything you say a fair hearing.

1. To support the proposition that ‘Mary was a sinner’, my friend quoted Leviticus 12:1-4, 6-8:

Quote:
The LORD said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites: ‘A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period. On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised. Then the woman must wait thirty-three days to be purified from her bleeding. She must not touch anything sacred or go to the sanctuary until the days of her purification are over. When the days of her purification for a son or daughter are over, she is to bring to the priest at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting a year-old lamb for a burnt offering and a young pigeon or a dove for a sin offering. He shall offer them before the LORD to make atonement for her, and then she will be ceremonially clean from her flow of blood. These are the regulations for the woman who gives birth to a boy or a girl. If she cannot afford a lamb, she is to bring two doves or two young pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering. In this way the priest will make atonement for her, and she will be clean.’” (NIV, emphasis added)

So, the point was, that if Mary did these things after the birth of Jesus, she must have been a sinner in order to make a sin offering. Your thoughts?

Thanks for your help and pray for me as I’m becoming Catholic in eight days (as of April 7).

David

Merely participating in a rite is not an admission of guilt. I’m sure Jesus offered sacrifices along with his parents, too, but that doesn’t mean he was a sinner, either. Mary’s offering of such sacrifices shows her humility, her obedience as a good daughter of Judah. It in no way “proves” she was a sinner.

 

[PraRFLEsEkHm]

David123:

Here are two questions I was asked and unable to answer very well. Any help is greatly appreciated!

1. To support ‘eternal’ security’, a friend quoted John 10:27-29 which states,

The point this person was making is that “nobody” includes all other people as well as yourself, meaning that not even you yourself can take yourself out of the Father’s hand, ie. salvation. I know that we need to take the Bible as a whole when making claims such as this, but I don’t think the other person understands that and thus I’m trying to deal with this passage specifically. How should I respond?David

I would respond by saying that Christ said “My sheep know my voice, they follow me…” and following Him means taking Scripture as a whole - not picking and choosing what parts sound/feel good. Christ Himself told us in Matthew 7:13-27 (DRV)

Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it! Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them. Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock, And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock. And every one that heareth these my words, and doth them not, shall be like a foolish man that built his house upon the sand, And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell, and great was the fall thereof.

While it may be said, given the bold sections, that God didn’t ‘lose’ them out of His hand, while they were here on earth - he didn’t ‘save’ them either - it is those who DO the will of the Father who are ‘saved’.

Then see what he has to say about works…refer Him to the book of James…Chapters 2 and 4.

quote=David123 To support the proposition that ‘Mary was a sinner’, my friend quoted Leviticus 12:1-4, 6-8:

So, the point was, that if Mary did these things after the birth of Jesus, she must have been a sinner in order to make a sin offering. Your thoughts?David
[/quote]

From the Haydock Commentary:

Ver. 22. Of her purification. The blessed Virgin mother stood not in need of this ceremony, to which she submitted herself, as her Son did to that of circumcision. (Witham) — Whence St. Lawrence Justinian in his sermon on the purification, very well observes: grace raised the Virgin above the law; humility subjected her to it. Jesus Christ, in subjecting himself to the law of Moses, has left us an example to princes and magistrates, to obey their own laws; for then they may expect them to be observed by others, when themselves shew respect to them. (Barradius.)

David123:

Thanks for your help and pray for me as I’m becoming Catholic in eight days (as of April 7).
David

Me Too!

 

[Klm]

In response to your first question, I think that’s been well answered already. For your second question, here’s something to consider. We know the Blessed Mother was born without original sin. Did she? While she was on Earth, I mean. To suppose she did, falls under the same category as supposing Jesus knew he was the only begotten of the Father from the time of his conception and/or birth. Both were fully human. With a human’s developing knowledge of self. It’s safe to say none of the saints knew they would be named saints while on this earth, and would not have been pleased to be called a saint while alive, except in the most general sense that we are all saints. I think Mary offered those sacrifices because she saw herself as we see ourselves, as a sinner in need of grace. As one born without original sin, of course she would have followed the Law, just as Jesus did.
And welcome to the church! I remember how nervous, scared, excited and overwhelmed I felt when I came into the church in 2003!

 

[Liberian]

Ted CharlotteNC:

I like your Mary question and look forward to a learned scholar’s answer.

I’m not a learned scholar, but while we’re waiting for one (unless one has already responded) I would offer you that Jesus received John’s baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

• Liberian