Two RCIA Questions

[seeker63]

Last week one of my RCIA instructors suggested that Jesus didn’t really know He was the Messiah until John baptized Him, and then after that He came to realize more and more who He was and what He was here for. I seem to recall that was the postion Kazantzakis took in “The Last Temptation of Chirst.”

Also, one of my RCIA books says that the Church doesn’t regard the Book of Revelation as a prophetic depiction of the end of the world, but rather as just a symbolic tale of good triumphing over evil.

Any thoughts on either of these positions?

 

[Detroit_Sue]

seeker63:

Last week one of my RCIA instructors suggested that Jesus didn’t really know He was the Messiah until John baptized Him, and then after that He came to realize more and more who He was and what He was here for. I seem to recall that was the postion Kazantzakis took in “The Last Temptation of Chirst.”

Also, one of my RCIA books says that the Church doesn’t regard the Book of Revelation as a prophetic depiction of the end of the world, but rather as just a symbolic tale of good triumphing over evil.

Any thoughts on either of these positions?

First - find another RCIA program.

When Mary and Joseph came from Jerusalem, and Jesus wasn’t with them, they were very worried. They traveled back, and found Jesus teaching among the scribes. When Our Lady told Jesus that “your father and I have been looking for you,” Jesus replied, “Did you not know I would be in my Father’s house?” Jesus always knew who He was. I defer teh Revelations question to someone more scholaly than me.

 

[mjdonnelly]

Here is evidence that he knew when he was 12 yrs old:

Luke 2:48-50

48
When his parents saw him, they were astonished, and his mother said to him, “Son, why have you done this to us? Your father and I have been looking for you with great anxiety.”
49
And he said to them, “Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father’s house?”
50
But they did not understand what he said to them.

 

[Faustina]

I think I would ask your RCIA instructor to clarify her statement on Christ’s baptism. Take with you the references to Luke. If they stand by what you have written, then I would go to the priest.

As far as Revelations is concerned, it can be a frightening book to read, but yes it is a book of hope, of good over evil. Scott Hahn has written some great things about Revelations. I think the name of the book is " The Lamb’s Supper" He has written so many so much, I get the titles confused. But I am thinking this is the book in which there are references to Revelations regarding the Mass and the Eucharist.
Scott Hahn is an incredible writer in that he packs alot on a single page without being wordy or so scholarly you have to be a theologian to understand it.

 

[seeker63]

Well, as it happened, I mentioned the story of the young Christ in the Temple, and the instructor (who, by the way, was just one of the two instructors for my table–not the main one for the class) said she felt Christ grew up with an innate sense of the Scriptures and God’s plan, but that it was one thing to be a child prodigy and another to realize He was the Messiah.

Either she or the guest lecturer that night suggested that Jesus was illiterate, couldn’t read or write Aramaic, and probably could only read enough Hebrew to get by in the synagogue. Since I have to make a conscious effort not to show off in RCIA class, I said nothing further.

It would seem to me that Christ, as God, would have infinite intellectual abilities from birth, and that He would just, during His incarnation, hold His abilities somewhat in check so that He could best accomplish His mission.

As for Revelation, I’ve read it a few times and have read commentary on it that explained it to my satisfaction, though that commentary did interpret the book as prophetic.

 

[pnewton]

It is important to remember that prophecy in the Bible has always dealt more with current events than future events. If you read Revelation it tells you who it is addressed to primarily, the seven churches in Asia Minor.

I found Scott Hahn’s treatment of Revelation in The Lamb’s Supper is insightful.

 

[Aris]

seeker63:

It would seem to me that Christ, as God, would have infinite intellectual abilities from birth, and that He would just, during His incarnation, hold His abilities somewhat in check so that He could best accomplish His mission.

The answer should be straightforward if we believe that Christ if God only. However, He is also man.

This is a difficult question. Not easily answerable. Reminds me of that Thread “Only the Father knows the time…”

 

[seeker63]

The answer should be straightforward if we believe that Christ if God only. However, He is also man.

This is a difficult question. Not easily answerable. Reminds me of that Thread “Only the Father knows the time…”

[Wouldn’t one of the points of the temptation in the desert be that Jesus had all these amazing abilities, but chose to keep one arm tied behind His back, as it were?]

 

[Aris]

I think if He did that then it does not fully show His Humanity nor His Divinity. Besides that was the number one temptation, to show He was indeed God.

The temptation in the desert is an example to us that we too can conquer temptation not by being divine but by relying on God’s word.

 

[RobedWithLight]

seeker63:

Last week one of my RCIA instructors suggested that Jesus didn’t really know He was the Messiah until John baptized Him, and then after that He came to realize more and more who He was and what He was here for. I seem to recall that was the postion Kazantzakis took in “The Last Temptation of Chirst.”

Any thoughts on either of these positions?

Your instructor was mistaken. Christ knew who He was and never had an identity crisis. He already knew God to be His true Father before He was baptized, as proven by scriptural accounts, one of which was cited in an earlier post* (Luke 2:48-50). *

Gerry

 

[jmm08]

At my parish, the RCIA instructor taught the 2nd class (I’m in RCIA).

I understand is that when we get into doctrine and dogma we will have one of the priests each week (and perhaps sometimes the transitional deacon who will be a priest by next year).

I think go through RCIA where you are at if it is too difficult to go to another one. And get additional training from a good source.

Father Corapi has some videos which I suppose are very good.
They are kind of expensive, but if you can afford it thats great.

There are some Archbishop Sheen recordings that are very good. I don’t know if they were meant to be RCIA, but the contents look fairly complete to me).

See bishop-sheen.org/Talks.html
or
americancatholictruthsociety.com/articles/sheen.htm

 

[javelin]

seeker63:

Also, one of my RCIA books says that the Church doesn’t regard the Book of Revelation as a prophetic depiction of the end of the world, but rather as just a symbolic tale of good triumphing over evil.

Any thoughts on either of these positions?

Hello, seeker!

I have a set of tapes of a Scripture lecture series that Scott Hahn did some years ago. It is extremely interesting to listen to. I’ll try to summarize the key part of the question of prophesy.

From looking solely at the literary style of writing, the book of Revelations is very clearly prophetic writing. But the real question is what is it prophetic of? There are really only four options:

1. The events already happened, and the prophesy fulfilled
2. The events are happening now, and are being fulfilled
3. The events will happen and be fulfilled sometime in the future
4. None of the above. The prophetic description of events never happened and never will (the “just a symbolic tale” point of view)

Dr. Hahn states in the lecture series that he believes that Revelation is prophesy that fits #1-3 above. He believes that much of what was written was for John’s contemporary audience prior to 70 A.D., fortelling the Roman seige and destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. He notes that there is historical evidence that tens of thousands of Christians knew enough in advance to flee to the surrounding mountains prior to the Roman seige that led to the city being ostensibly destroyed, and most of its inhabitants killed.

He also indicates that while much of the imagery in Revelations can be shown to fit that time period, there are additional items that seem to have an even larger scope. Those items, he believes, are being fulfilled on a more worldly level (as opposed to focusing on the city of Jerusalem), and could possibly be happening now. Lastly, from other indicators he believes it is possible that the events fortell the end times of all of Creation.

So the scope of the revelation continues to grow and grow, from only the city of Jerusalem, to the world, to all of creation.

Very interesting, or at least I thought so. :whacky: Note that this is not dogmatically defined by the Church, and could be nothing more than Dr. Hahn’s interpolation and speculation on Scripture. Dr. Hahn concedes that himself, although the evidence is strong for at least the theroy that the prophesy was fulfilled in 70 A.D. The Church has remained ostensibly neutral on the exact nature and time of the fulfillment of Revelation.

Hope this helps!
Peace,
javelin

 

[puzzleannie]

Please have mercy on your RCIA catechists and pray for them, they are doing the best they can with the formation and resources they have been given. Most catechists and DREs and those responsible for implementing RCIA in parishes have themselves received very poor education for their task. Most of the books and other resources which they have received from highly respected “Catholic” publishers and the biggest names in “Catholic” liturgical and RCIA resources, are quite simply garbage. In most parishes, and in many dioceses, the persons responsible for evaluating the textbooks are themselves not qualified to do so. The bishops have delegated this responsibility to people who received their theological training at so-called “Catholic” colleges and universities which have been teaching heresy and dissent for at least 30 years.

Your catechist is handing on to you, in good faith and in all sincerity, what he has been given, so let us hope he is not the one who will burn in hell for misleading the innocent, but the ones responsible for his poor formation. I myself contemplate with terror the prospect of my ages in purgatory for bad teaching I handed on in my first 10 years as a catechist before I found the truth, and with God’s grace found great teachers to reeducate me in the Catholic faith.

You have a right to sound instruction in the faith and it is a grave abuse of charity, justice and canon law to teach dissent and heresy to the young, the uncatechised and especially to those seeking full communion with the Church. Again, pray for your catechists daily, and look for a program where the truth resonates and fills your heart with the love of Jesus. Also a parish where your teachers are also living the faith fully in their personal lives in accord with the moral teaching of the Church, including that on marriage and family, and where there charity and giving to others is evident, in a parish where concern and practical care for the poor is a priority.

 

[dizzy_dave]

Detroit Sue:

First - find another RCIA program.

When Mary and Joseph came from Jerusalem, and Jesus wasn’t with them, they were very worried. They traveled back, and found Jesus teaching among the scribes. When Our Lady told Jesus that “your father and I have been looking for you,” Jesus replied, “Did you not know I would be in my Father’s house?” Jesus always knew who He was. I defer teh Revelations question to someone more scholaly than me.

I agree find another RCIA program, my Mom is the head of the RCIA program at my parish and this is another fine example of bad teaching to people joining the church, Jesus was Christ and he knew it - he was (is) God, areading of the Gospels will confirm this, I hope maybe they accidentally spoke wrong somehow and didn’t mean it that way.

 

[trogiah]

Detroit Sue:

First - find another RCIA program.

When Mary and Joseph came from Jerusalem, and Jesus wasn’t with them, they were very worried. They traveled back, and found Jesus teaching among the scribes. When Our Lady told Jesus that “your father and I have been looking for you,” Jesus replied, “Did you not know I would be in my Father’s house?” Jesus always knew who He was. I defer teh Revelations question to someone more scholaly than me.

I am curious what the point of the RCIA instructor might have been in making the original statement. For myself, I don’t have a problem with the idea that, during his lifetime, Jesus continued to grow in understanding about God’s complete plan for the salvation of the world. To be otherwise would make Jesus something other than fully human. The story above indicates that Jesus was limited in his understanding of parents and how they worry. (sounds like a very human teenager) At one point in his life he hesitates to give healing to a non-Jewish woman until her arguements convince Him that the time was right to extend the gift of God’s salvation.
Already hinted is the clear statement Jesus makes that he doesn’t know the day and hour of the end of the world.

Because he was human, Jesus had limited knowledge. He was ok with that, we should be too. It doesn’t make him less the Messiah. He is the Messiah because God intended him to be the Messiah, not because Jesus decided he was the Messiah.

Again, I am curious what the RCIA teacher had in mind in saying that. By itself, it doesn’t seem absolutely necessary to get a different RCIA instructor.

-Jim

 

[twf]

Does not the Catechism itself teach that Christ knew his purpose as a child? I’ll have to look it up…(it’s late), unless someone beats me to it .

God bless.

 

[Todd_Easton]

twf:

Does not the Catechism itself teach that Christ knew his purpose as a child?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) seems to support the opinion that Jesus was aware of his mission before his baptism:

The obedience of Christ in the daily routine of his hidden life was already inaugurating his work of restoring what the disobedience of Adam had destroyed. (CCC, 532, emphasis added)

The finding of Jesus in the temple is the only event that breaks the silence of the Gospels about the hidden years of Jesus. Here Jesus lets us catch a glimpse of the mystery of his total consecration to a mission that flows from his divine sonship: “Did you not know that I must be about my Father’s work?” (CCC, 534, emphasis added)

Jesus’ public life begins with his baptism by John in the Jordan. … The Baptist hesitates, but Jesus insists and receives baptism. (CCC, 535, emphasis added)

The baptism of Jesus is on his part** the acceptance** and inauguration of his mission as God’s suffering Servant. … The Father’s voice responds to the Son’s acceptance, proclaiming his entire delight in his Son. The Spirit whom Jesus possessed in fullness from his conception comes to “rest on him”. (CCC, 536, emphasis added)

 

[javelin]

Todd Easton:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) seems to support the opinion that Jesus was aware of his mission before his baptism:

But in all fairness, even the Catechism is not difinitive on this point. I think trogiah’s point is a great one – what’s the real point? The incarnation is a mystery of faith precisely because it is impossible for us to exactly know the inner mind of the man-god Jesus, nor can we completely comprehend how it is possible to be “fully human” AND “fully divine” when we see those things to be opposite in some sense. It would be like looking at an object and saying it is a perfect cube while simultaneously being a perfect sphere. In our human dimension that is impossible.

The real importance, I think (as trogiah seems to), is what was the implication or intent of the RCIA instructor teaching this? Was she trying to show the significance of baptism/confirmation by drawing a parallel between how Jesus’ baptism and consecration to God began His ministry and how our baptism and confirmation can lead to our participation in ministry? Was she trying to say that Jesus grew to learn His mission through baptism, and thus we should seek that as well? Those things would be fine. Is she implying that Jesus was NOT fully divine prior to His baptism? That would be incorrect.

So before jumping ship, ask a few more questions, especially regarding the implication and Biblical support for the idea. Sometimes people, in good faith, build up their own, somewhat faulty, theological understanding around something that is essentially true, and questioning them on it in love encourages them to look at it again from a different perspective.

Whatever you do, praying for everyone in your program can only help! God bless.

Peace,
javelin

 

[javelin]

One other thing, I fully believe, in general, that the Church teachers should be explicit in differentiating between what is absolute Truth and what theological theory, regardless of how well-supported the theory is. We do initiates a grave injustice when we present theological speculation (no matter how genuine the intent) as dogmatic Truth. That very thing has led many to misunderstand the Church in core ways that lead to a blanket mistrust of anything the Church says, even if it IS dogmatic.

Peace,
javelin

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

seeker63:

Last week one of my RCIA instructors suggested that Jesus didn’t really know He was the Messiah until John baptized Him, and then after that He came to realize more and more who He was and what He was here for. I seem to recall that was the postion Kazantzakis took in “The Last Temptation of Chirst.”

Also, one of my RCIA books says that the Church doesn’t regard the Book of Revelation as a prophetic depiction of the end of the world, but rather as just a symbolic tale of good triumphing over evil.

Any thoughts on either of these positions?

The knowledge Christ had through His Divine nature was infinitely perfect.

The knoweldge Christ had through His human nature was not infinite.

Three kinds of human knoweldge:

Celestial- His human soul from the moment of it’s existence enjoyed, like the angels the immediate vision of God, and in that beheld all things past, present, and to come.

Infused- His soul was endowed with all that knowledge which God gave the angels at their creation.

Experimental- His soul had the ordinary knoweldge which men obtain in everyday life from the use of their senses and reason. However we must understand that all the knoweldge so acquired was already in his possession through other channels.

In addition to His human knowledge, being Divine, the Third Person of the Trinity, Christ also had Divine knowledge of all things past, present, and to come.

The Church has not defined anything about the Book of Revelation, except that it is Sacred Scripture.