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FollowChrist34
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Sorry to hear it. I am not crushed but I do support the team in the World Cup, which I watch pretty avidly. But I am a pragmatist - the US can only go so far. I pick teams kind of the way you pick a horse. Germany, Italy, somebody with a shot. I have quite a long list of acceptable back ups too in case my adopted country at any given point gets eliminated.
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tomarin
Guest
Well yes, they are a mediocre team in a weak region soccer-wise so it’s always a question of when, not if, they will be eliminated by a stronger team from Europe or once in a while Africa (last time it was Belgium). Nevertheless it’s disheartening to see them not appear at all. One article I read said that this was just a feature of international soccer and might even represent their arrival at the ‘big time’ because this happens once in a while even to soccer powerhouses like Holland and Italy. It almost happened to Argentina this year.Sorry to hear it. I am not crushed but I do support the team in the World Cup, which I watch pretty avidly. But I am a pragmatist - the US can only go so far. I pick teams kind of the way you pick a horse. Germany, Italy, somebody with a shot. I have quite a long list of acceptable back ups too in case my adopted country at any given point gets eliminated.
What’s sad also is that Jurgen Klinsmann was hired as coach to great fanfare and expectations and it seems it was under his watch that the American men’s team lost their way. They brought back faded glory Bruce Arena as a stopgap measure but it was too late. Now no one knows who they will find to lead the team out of this crisis - there’ s no obvious or obviously logical choice. The prospective American coaches lack the understanding of international soccer, and the non-American coaches have trouble dealing with the size and scope of America’s soccer landscape (I’ve read).
In the meantime, I guess we can always root for punching-above-their-weight Iceland!
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FollowChrist34
Guest
Sorry Tomarin, I can tell you are a real fan. I watched the US lose to Belgium - I thought they might actually pull it out. They played that game with a lot of heart and intensity. Even I was really into it on their behalf, especially the second half. The US is not a soccer country, but I was proud of the effort they put into it.
Can’t believe the World Cup is in 2018! 4 years since Germany over Argentina which I LOVED. Remember that wipe out of Brazil? Could not believe that. I did enjoy watching Germany. Perfection. I was afraid Argentina would win after the Brazil game. Don’t think I sat down during the final. Nail-biter.
For anyone else interested but not quite up to speed, this is where we are at:
http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/preliminaries/europe/index.html
Can’t believe the World Cup is in 2018! 4 years since Germany over Argentina which I LOVED. Remember that wipe out of Brazil? Could not believe that. I did enjoy watching Germany. Perfection. I was afraid Argentina would win after the Brazil game. Don’t think I sat down during the final. Nail-biter.
For anyone else interested but not quite up to speed, this is where we are at:
http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/preliminaries/europe/index.html
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tomarin
Guest
Yes, I remember the horror of host nation Brazil’s loss to Germany very vividly. I was rooting for Argentina in the final but Messi and company failed to work their magic. I remember he retired from international soccer at that point but I noticed he was back in the uniform a few days ago.Sorry Tomarin, I can tell you are a real fan. I watched the US lose to Belgium - I thought they might actually pull it out. They played that game with a lot of heart and intensity. Even I was really into it on their behalf, especially the second half. The US is not a soccer country, but I was proud of the effort they put into it.
Can’t believe the World Cup is in 2018! 4 years since Germany over Argentina which I LOVED. Remember that wipe out of Brazil? Could not believe that. I did enjoy watching Germany. Perfection. I was afraid Argentina would win after the Brazil game. Don’t think I sat down during the final. Nail-biter.
For anyone else interested but not quite up to speed, this is where we are at:
http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/preliminaries/europe/index.html
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Midwest88
Guest
I am a little upset. On paper the USMNT were the better team when compared to T&T, so it’s not necessarily the lack of talent that some are saying. We have a couple of soccer pundits say that this US squad was the strongest with depth in each position while another saying it was a mediocre, at best. One of these sides is incorrect. Whichever, the squad that showed up against T&T didn’t get the job done given what was on the line. I’ve listened to several discussions on what went wrong so I’ll try my best to present them with my own thoughts.
American Arrogance
Argument: USMNT came into the match expecting to win without putting in the effort because they “were America.” Some pundits said this was an example of “American arrogance.”
Me: Though America has an international reputation of being arrogant I don’t see how this is in anyway 'American" when it comes to sports. You look at college basketball where the team from the power conference is expected to win against a weaker team. Ask candidly if the players from the power conference team think they’ll win. There is probably a similar attitude found within the soccer powerhouses of the world. Arrogance is nothing new in sports and it’s not specific to America.
Lack of Leadership
Argument: USMNT veteran players did not show leadership.
Me: I agree. Michael Bradley, Josey Altidore etc. did not show signs of urgency when they were scored on. This team was stronger than T&T just on talent alone yet as one pundit put it: “You wouldn’t know this was the game that decided their WC birth. You’d think this was some training session.” I’m not sure what Bradley told the squad at half-time but whatever he said wasn’t remotely enough. Bradley and the senior players failed to muster any fight within their teammates. As I said, the squad that came to battle against T&T was stronger on paper. The issue, in my mind, was they didn’t come to battle. They came to jog around a pitch for 90+ minutes. It’s the lack of leadership and the lack of urgency. The players knew what was on the line but for whatever reason they weren’t motivated to pick up the equalizer. Blame it on tactics even.
Bruce Arena
Argument: Bruce Arena was the wrong man for the job.
Me: This is hard to gauge. I believe Arena is a capable domestic coach who knows how to rally his players when necessary. It just didn’t happen against T&T. Some say he’s a Brooklyn MLS reject (true) but that has little to do with his coaching abilities. Remember this little tidbit: Arena’s international coaching win % is higher than Jurgen Klinsmann’s. Like Bradley, Arena didn’t get the job done. His squad needed one point to qualify against a T&T side that was playing its reserves because their first team players were injured.
American Arrogance
Argument: USMNT came into the match expecting to win without putting in the effort because they “were America.” Some pundits said this was an example of “American arrogance.”
Me: Though America has an international reputation of being arrogant I don’t see how this is in anyway 'American" when it comes to sports. You look at college basketball where the team from the power conference is expected to win against a weaker team. Ask candidly if the players from the power conference team think they’ll win. There is probably a similar attitude found within the soccer powerhouses of the world. Arrogance is nothing new in sports and it’s not specific to America.
Lack of Leadership
Argument: USMNT veteran players did not show leadership.
Me: I agree. Michael Bradley, Josey Altidore etc. did not show signs of urgency when they were scored on. This team was stronger than T&T just on talent alone yet as one pundit put it: “You wouldn’t know this was the game that decided their WC birth. You’d think this was some training session.” I’m not sure what Bradley told the squad at half-time but whatever he said wasn’t remotely enough. Bradley and the senior players failed to muster any fight within their teammates. As I said, the squad that came to battle against T&T was stronger on paper. The issue, in my mind, was they didn’t come to battle. They came to jog around a pitch for 90+ minutes. It’s the lack of leadership and the lack of urgency. The players knew what was on the line but for whatever reason they weren’t motivated to pick up the equalizer. Blame it on tactics even.
Bruce Arena
Argument: Bruce Arena was the wrong man for the job.
Me: This is hard to gauge. I believe Arena is a capable domestic coach who knows how to rally his players when necessary. It just didn’t happen against T&T. Some say he’s a Brooklyn MLS reject (true) but that has little to do with his coaching abilities. Remember this little tidbit: Arena’s international coaching win % is higher than Jurgen Klinsmann’s. Like Bradley, Arena didn’t get the job done. His squad needed one point to qualify against a T&T side that was playing its reserves because their first team players were injured.
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Midwest88
Guest
USMNT was made up of mostly MLS players
Argument: USMNT fielded a mediocre team that couldn’t win against T&T because most of its players were from the MLS.
Me: True, most were from the MLS but the Panama team in which they beat 4-0 mostly had players in other leagues. MLS doesn’t produce world class players, but the squad formed against T&T were stronger than their first team. If USMNT won against T&T the talk against playing MLS players would not be moot. Player selection wasn’t the issue.
Pay-to-Play
Argument: Because there is pay to play system within youth soccer some of the best prospects are locked out, hence the lack of star players on the USMNT.
Me: Now we’re stepping away from “what happened against T&T.” Yes, pay to play will price out potential stars, but that has little to do with what happened to USMNT against T&T. If the argument is that there isn’t enough minority kids playing soccer then isn’t that just a stereotype resting on kids of color being good at sports? If it’s the talk of lack of diversity it still fails. No one on ESPN or fans of the NHL are writing columns about the lack of diversity in youth hockey and the NHL (depending on where you live, there is not a lack of minority kids on travel soccer teams).
Youth soccer is expensive, but youth hockey is the most expensive youth sport played. Despite the costs, youth hockey is able to create professionals that fill roster spots in the NHL, a league that is considered the best professional hockey league in the world. If anything it’s the disconnect between youth soccer, under-21’s teams and the overall lack of youth development infrastructure.
Argument: USMNT fielded a mediocre team that couldn’t win against T&T because most of its players were from the MLS.
Me: True, most were from the MLS but the Panama team in which they beat 4-0 mostly had players in other leagues. MLS doesn’t produce world class players, but the squad formed against T&T were stronger than their first team. If USMNT won against T&T the talk against playing MLS players would not be moot. Player selection wasn’t the issue.
Pay-to-Play
Argument: Because there is pay to play system within youth soccer some of the best prospects are locked out, hence the lack of star players on the USMNT.
Me: Now we’re stepping away from “what happened against T&T.” Yes, pay to play will price out potential stars, but that has little to do with what happened to USMNT against T&T. If the argument is that there isn’t enough minority kids playing soccer then isn’t that just a stereotype resting on kids of color being good at sports? If it’s the talk of lack of diversity it still fails. No one on ESPN or fans of the NHL are writing columns about the lack of diversity in youth hockey and the NHL (depending on where you live, there is not a lack of minority kids on travel soccer teams).
Youth soccer is expensive, but youth hockey is the most expensive youth sport played. Despite the costs, youth hockey is able to create professionals that fill roster spots in the NHL, a league that is considered the best professional hockey league in the world. If anything it’s the disconnect between youth soccer, under-21’s teams and the overall lack of youth development infrastructure.
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Midwest88
Guest
Big Four stealing prospects away
Argument: Kids grow up playing basketball, American football, hockey and baseball which are more popular sports than soccer. Just think Lebron James playing soccer they say.
Me: This is such an utterly weak argument. Here’s why.
(1) Arguably soccer is the fifth most popular sport in America.
(2) There are approximately 2 million kids playing youth soccer versus approximately 500 thousand players youth hockey. Again, despite the drastically lower youth participation in hockey, somehow USA hockey is able to field a strong men’s (and women’s) national team that competes against countries where hockey is even more popular (Canada). Are you telling me that within this 5 million kids the USSF cannot field at least two squads that can not only qualify but compete at the WC? There’s something wrong with talent assessment and how that talent is nurtured and developed. Fix it.
(3) It’s not a zero sum game. There are countless, if not thousands, of kids in the US who play multiple sports and show talent in each one. Colin Kaepernick was a multi-sport athlete in high school. He was good enough in baseball that he was drafted by the Chicago Cubs his senior year but he opted to play American football at Nevada. He was also an all-conference basketball player. You’d be looking under rocks to find an MLB fan seriously asking themselves what if of Kaepernick’s non-existant MLB career. Just by sheer numbers alone the USSF is supplied with enough kids. The only problem is weeding out the mediocre talent from the good, and the good from the exceptional and the developing the good and the exceptional.
(4) To play off #3, there are small to midsize countries who field strong national soccer teams e.g. Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, England, Portugal, Spain, France. To say there is not enough talent is ignoring the success of the listed countries.
Argument: Kids grow up playing basketball, American football, hockey and baseball which are more popular sports than soccer. Just think Lebron James playing soccer they say.
Me: This is such an utterly weak argument. Here’s why.
(1) Arguably soccer is the fifth most popular sport in America.
(2) There are approximately 2 million kids playing youth soccer versus approximately 500 thousand players youth hockey. Again, despite the drastically lower youth participation in hockey, somehow USA hockey is able to field a strong men’s (and women’s) national team that competes against countries where hockey is even more popular (Canada). Are you telling me that within this 5 million kids the USSF cannot field at least two squads that can not only qualify but compete at the WC? There’s something wrong with talent assessment and how that talent is nurtured and developed. Fix it.
(3) It’s not a zero sum game. There are countless, if not thousands, of kids in the US who play multiple sports and show talent in each one. Colin Kaepernick was a multi-sport athlete in high school. He was good enough in baseball that he was drafted by the Chicago Cubs his senior year but he opted to play American football at Nevada. He was also an all-conference basketball player. You’d be looking under rocks to find an MLB fan seriously asking themselves what if of Kaepernick’s non-existant MLB career. Just by sheer numbers alone the USSF is supplied with enough kids. The only problem is weeding out the mediocre talent from the good, and the good from the exceptional and the developing the good and the exceptional.
(4) To play off #3, there are small to midsize countries who field strong national soccer teams e.g. Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, England, Portugal, Spain, France. To say there is not enough talent is ignoring the success of the listed countries.
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Midwest88
Guest
There Should Be Pro/Reg
Argument: Because there is no promotion/regulation within MLS there is no culture of competitiveness that players can ingrain.
Me: Like the zero sum argument, this is rather weak. These are professional athletes - they are already competitive. There is zero proof that shows a league who has a pro/reg system has player who are more competitive. Are you saying that because the MLB, NHL, NFL and NBA are closed systems that the players who are on the national team lack competitiveness? You’d be a fool to say yes. Argue about pro/reg for player development on the youth side, or to get an injured player game fit because he’s lacking first team experience. Don’t argue that pro/reg gives a national team an edge. Though pro/reg is found in all of the countries that are strong in soccer that doesn’t mean there’s any correlation; as for now it just a common characteristic.
Taylor Twellman: Treating soccer like the other Big Four.
Argument: (
)
Me: Giving the first draft to the worst team doesn’t have anything to do with what Twellman wants American soccer to do: to be great. If you want to talk about accountability then that needs to be cultivated within the USSF. Don’t blame “the American way” on why USSF is failing when it comes to finding and developing talent, tactical coaching and workplace accountability. It’s like blaming the Big Four for “stealing” away the Lebron James of soccer. An English man actually liked the way mediocrity is rewarded in American sports: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00TIKYVJ4/ref=oh_aui_d_detailpage_o01_?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Bottom line: It’s about the youth development; creating a development pyramid that finds talent and develops them without parent politics and favoritism.
See: Das Reboot and How Germany used youth and coach development to get to the top.
Argument: Because there is no promotion/regulation within MLS there is no culture of competitiveness that players can ingrain.
Me: Like the zero sum argument, this is rather weak. These are professional athletes - they are already competitive. There is zero proof that shows a league who has a pro/reg system has player who are more competitive. Are you saying that because the MLB, NHL, NFL and NBA are closed systems that the players who are on the national team lack competitiveness? You’d be a fool to say yes. Argue about pro/reg for player development on the youth side, or to get an injured player game fit because he’s lacking first team experience. Don’t argue that pro/reg gives a national team an edge. Though pro/reg is found in all of the countries that are strong in soccer that doesn’t mean there’s any correlation; as for now it just a common characteristic.
Taylor Twellman: Treating soccer like the other Big Four.
Argument: (
Me: Giving the first draft to the worst team doesn’t have anything to do with what Twellman wants American soccer to do: to be great. If you want to talk about accountability then that needs to be cultivated within the USSF. Don’t blame “the American way” on why USSF is failing when it comes to finding and developing talent, tactical coaching and workplace accountability. It’s like blaming the Big Four for “stealing” away the Lebron James of soccer. An English man actually liked the way mediocrity is rewarded in American sports: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00TIKYVJ4/ref=oh_aui_d_detailpage_o01_?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Bottom line: It’s about the youth development; creating a development pyramid that finds talent and develops them without parent politics and favoritism.
See: Das Reboot and How Germany used youth and coach development to get to the top.
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Midwest88
Guest
America should start calling it football
Argument: Since America calls it soccer its soccer culture sucks.
Me: What absolute garbage. Learn some history and respect it.
See:Why Americans Call Soccer 'Soccer' - The Atlantic
Argument: Since America calls it soccer its soccer culture sucks.
Me: What absolute garbage. Learn some history and respect it.
See:Why Americans Call Soccer 'Soccer' - The Atlantic
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tomarin
Guest
@Midwest88, thanks for the exhaustive discussion! You raise a lot of good and interesting points. I can’t respond to all of them right now, but I generally agree with your take on these arguments.
What is hard to fathom about the mens’ team’s recent performances is that they played so well against Panama just a few days before showing up listless, sluggish and with seemingly no sense of urgency when they played Trinidad and Tobago (and lost of course). I think part of it was psychological (hey, it’s just Trinidad and Tobago), part the weather and partly some kind of dysfunction in the team itself: I think with the exception of teen phenom Pusilic and Woods the core of the team is getting a little too old.
Learning from you it was a reserve squad from Trinidad makes the pain even more acute.
What is hard to fathom about the mens’ team’s recent performances is that they played so well against Panama just a few days before showing up listless, sluggish and with seemingly no sense of urgency when they played Trinidad and Tobago (and lost of course). I think part of it was psychological (hey, it’s just Trinidad and Tobago), part the weather and partly some kind of dysfunction in the team itself: I think with the exception of teen phenom Pusilic and Woods the core of the team is getting a little too old.
Learning from you it was a reserve squad from Trinidad makes the pain even more acute.
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adamhovey1988
Guest
I’m disappointed, I really am. I really wanted to see my boy Clint Dempsey play with a broken nose again.
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