Ukrainian Orthodox Parish turns Greek Catholic

[Isa_Almisry]

Can you provide more details on that?

The US government outsourced services like education to missinoary groups, who took it upon themselves to stamp out Orthodoxy along with native culture, like public burning of icons and head shaving (an aspect of native piety, hair growing, that the Orthodox had let be). Much like what they did on Indian Reservations down in the lower 49.

 

[mardukm]

The US government outsourced services like education to missinoary groups, who took it upon themselves to stamp out Orthodoxy along with native culture, like public burning of icons and head shaving (an aspect of native piety, hair growing, that the Orthodox had let be). Much like what they did on Indian Reservations down in the lower 49.

Like the Russians did to the native Alaskans, one should note as well. Or perhaps wholesale slaughter is different from stamping out native culture?

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Like the Russians did to the native Alaskans, one should note as well. Or perhaps wholesale slaughter is different from stamping out native culture?

Blessings,
Marduk

No.

I have heard of abuses by various Russians of the natives, but never of a government policy as such. The Holy Synod of Russia sponsered the translations into native languages, native clergy, etc. Such is the difference with the US, which did pursue a government policy of extermination.

I just came back from Fort Ross, the southernmost extension of Alaska, in Sonoma county CA. The settlement was of Russians, Alaska natives and creoles, and seemed to get along with the natives of the area, and even the Spanish.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Like the Russians did to the native Alaskans, one should note as well. Or perhaps wholesale slaughter is different from stamping out native culture?

Blessings,
Marduk

I fear this discussion is causing scandal

 

[Aramis]

The US government outsourced services like education to missinoary groups, who took it upon themselves to stamp out Orthodoxy along with native culture, like public burning of icons and head shaving (an aspect of native piety, hair growing, that the Orthodox had let be). Much like what they did on Indian Reservations down in the lower 49.

Lower 48, not 49. Hawaii has a wholly different set of issues. Mostly from British rule…

The major groups involved were the Society of Friends (More quakers in AK per capita than pretty much anywhere else…), the Anglican/Episcopals, and the Methodists. The vast majority of it was in the very late 19th c (1890-1920, really).

Orthodoxy is still the #2 “Sect” in the state, with Catholics being the only larger one.

The abuses, while present, were neither universal, nor were they well tolerated… the Natives were well armed, and missionaries were often run off. Many of the RO parishes in state are well over 100 years old.

Also, by 1905, the territorial education system was in place… and still is as the state educational system. Some abuses there, but few religiously oriented. Mostly anti-language issues. Some issues with compulsion for native children to attend residential high schools, wherein they could be beaten for use of their native tongues (or church slavonic). But even there, most had few problems. (I’ve read hundreds of school records from Mt. Edgecombe Residential High School. a few hideous abuses, many small injustices. But not, intrinsically, as bad as it might seem.)

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Lower 48, not 49. Hawaii has a wholly different set of issues. Mostly from British rule…

Ooops, yes 48.

British rule?

Hawaii does have a difference set of issues, one that that it was an interantionally recognized independent state (including the US) whose legitimate government was overthrown by American missionaries who proceeded to govern it as one big reservation. sort of the “Veiled Reservation.”

 

[dzheremi]

Wow…Sonoma County history, being discussed here on CAF! I feel like we’ve “made” it! I wish I had known that the very highly esteemed Isa Almisry was in my home area! I would’ve offered to treat you to a cup of coffee or tea, at least. Oh well.

As to the problems of the Ukranian Orthodox, that is just awful. It is not part of Catholicism as I was taught, but then I guess that’s never stopped anyone before. I agree with the others who have said that everyone should be respectful of each others’ religious backgrounds, so while I can be happy as a Roman Catholic that there are more in communion with Rome, I can’t be happy if these new confessions were made under any external pressure.

If they are freely made, then I guess I can just say ‘slava Bogu’!

 

[Aramis]

Ooops, yes 48.

British rule?

Hawaii does have a difference set of issues, one that that it was an interantionally recognized independent state (including the US) whose legitimate government was overthrown by American missionaries who proceeded to govern it as one big reservation. sort of the “Veiled Reservation.”

If you look at the Hawaiian Flag, it still carries the Union Jack. It was a British Vassal/Protectorate for some time. It was also independent for some time. by the time the US got involved, it was already culturally mangled…

 

[Isa_Almisry]

If you look at the Hawaiian Flag, it still carries the Union Jack. It was a British Vassal/Protectorate for some time. It was also independent for some time. by the time the US got involved, it was already culturally mangled…

The Hawaiians did copy the Union Jack, and the US flag (the stripes), deftly manuveuring between the two powers with big guns nosing around.

Hawaii is interesting, as when the missionaries arrived, the Hawaiians were more or less without a religion: the favorite wife of the elder Kamehameha and the mother of Kamehameha’s son showed their power by breaking kapu, upon which the system of taboos broke down, spiraled even further down when the “gods” failed to enforce the rules. Then came small pox and the rest of the usual story, except that the monarchy managed to remain somewhat in control for over a century after contact. They borrowed heavily from the west (like Japan around the same time).

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Wow…Sonoma County history, being discussed here on CAF! I feel like we’ve “made” it! I wish I had known that the very highly esteemed Isa Almisry was in my home area! I would’ve offered to treat you to a cup of coffee or tea, at least. Oh well.

I never turn down coffee. Next time, in shaa’ Allaah.

I hope you have seen Fort Ross. Its a decent historical site (and authentic) with a decent museum and book store, but no advertisement or signs I could see.

As to the problems of the Ukranian Orthodox, that is just awful. It is not part of Catholicism as I was taught, but then I guess that’s never stopped anyone before. I agree with the others who have said that everyone should be respectful of each others’ religious backgrounds, so while I can be happy as a Roman Catholic that there are more in communion with Rome, I can’t be happy if these new confessions were made under any external pressure.

yes, the talk of the communist actions as acts of justice make me cringe.

If they are freely made, then I guess I can just say ‘slava Bogu’!

vo veki/na viki!

 

[Diak]

It is generally polite to refer to the name of a city by its official name, which is L’viv, not L’vov.

It is unfortunate that the resurrection of a Church that was persecuted through both the Tsarist and Soviet regimes has some uneasy, but that is no reason to show bigotry. Freedom of conscience and religion can be fearful to some who stand to lose property and faithful in the face of true freedom.

This community had three choices if it wanted to remain in Orthodoxy. It chose none of these three. I can assure you our people who wish to remain UGCC in Eastern Ukraine are faced with much, much more difficulties than the MP face in western Ukraine. I am working with three communities in Donbas right now and speak from experience. We can not even get permission to start building there, compared with this sort of spilt milk over parishes that lawfully and freely decide to change jurisdictions.

If the UGCC is now an appealing option to those tired of having their churches and hierarchy run from Moscow (the painful fact of those in the UOC-MP) or suffering from inter-jurisdictional squabbles that is their choice.

No Russian should every think he is in Russia when in Kyiv, the capitol of free Ukraine, just as no American would rationally think he was in America if he was in Ottawa or Mexico City.

 

[Ridgerunner]

No Russian should every think he is in Russia when in Kyiv, the capitol of free Ukraine, just as no American would rationally think he was in America if he was in Ottawa or Mexico City.

Let’s hope it stays that way. I would like to ask the following:

1. If a Ukrainian Orthodox parish turned Greek Catholic, did they change their liturgial language, or is it all in the vernacular, regardless of whether it is Ukrainian or Greek?
2. Do Western Ukrainians use the Cyrillic alphabet or Latin alphabet?

 

[Diak]

Let’s hope it stays that way. I would like to ask the following:

1. If a Ukrainian Orthodox parish turned Greek Catholic, did they change their liturgial language, or is it all in the vernacular, regardless of whether it is Ukrainian or Greek?

1. Do Western Ukrainians use the Cyrillic alphabet or Latin alphabet?

1. “Greek Catholic” is simply a ritual descriptive term, such as “Latin Catholic” is used when speaking of those Catholics of the Latin Rite. It does not mean the particular Church is ethnically Greek, but belongs to the Greek/Byzantine liturgical tradition. The official term in Slavonic is “Hreko-Katolik” which is what Rome and the Kyivan bishops used to distinguish those of the Greek Rite when drafting the documents of the Union of Brest.

Most non-Muscovite parishes use vernacular Ukrainian, whether they be Ukrainian Greek Catholic (UGCC), Ukrainian Orthodox-Kyivan Patriarchate, or Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox.

1. All Ukrainians use the Cyrillic alphabet. Ukrainian is the national language of Ukraine, although Russian may be spoken in some areas of Left-bank (Eastern) Ukraine, Romanian spoken locally near Moldova, Rusyn in Zakkarpatia, etc.

There are some Slavic peoples, such as the Czechs, Slovaks, Slovenians, Croats and Poles, who use a modified Latin alphabet.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

1. “Greek Catholic” is simply a ritual descriptive term, such as “Latin Catholic” is used when speaking of those Catholics of the Latin Rite. It does not mean the particular Church is ethnically Greek, but belongs to the Greek/Byzantine liturgical tradition. The official term in Slavonic is “Hreko-Katolik” which is what Rome and the Kyivan bishops used to distinguish those of the Greek Rite when drafting the documents of the Union of Brest.

Most non-Muscovite parishes use vernacular Ukrainian, whether they be Ukrainian Greek Catholic (UGCC), Ukrainian Orthodox-Kyivan Patriarchate, or Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox.

1. All Ukrainians use the Cyrillic alphabet. Ukrainian is the national language of Ukraine, although Russian may be spoken in some areas of Left-bank (Eastern) Ukraine, Romanian spoken locally near Moldova, Rusyn in Zakkarpatia, etc.

There are some Slavic peoples, such as the Czechs, Slovaks, Slovenians, Croats and Poles, who use a modified Latin alphabet.

Just one comment: the Ukrainians attached to Moscow do not use vernacular Russian. They use a Ukranian recension of Church Slavonic, which served as the basis for the Church Slavonic in all the Russian Church.

 

[Aramis]

The “Latinskij” used by the BCCA/Ruthenians is an economia, one shared with the Russian Orthodox… it’s a fairly standard transliteration scheme for Cyrillic. I’ve seen it used in some Russian texts for English speakers. It’s similar to the Latin used in some of the Balkans.

the additional characters are really just accented characters.
š (sh, Cyrillic Ш)
č (ch, Cyrillic Ч)
ž (zh, the sound of the s in pleasure or measure. , Cyrillic Ж) Not consistently used.

In all three, ’ or " or ¨ have been used instead when typed, depending upon the keyboard available.

The šč diglyph is the transliteration for the Cyrillic Щ which is really a harshly aspirated sh sound…

j is the Cyrilic Й, a short i sound or a jotation (y as in you or yet)

Older BCCA (Eparchial era) texts are often in Cyrillic.

 

[TP2]

I am not understanding this as it seems to be evolving… What Orthodox Parish turned Eastern Rite Catholicv? You mean an Orthodox Church became a Uniate Church now?

+TP

 

[Volodymyr]

You mean an Orthodox Church became a ***Uniate ***Church?

Uniate name - I have been told is unacceptable name for GrekoCatolics. This at this sait is a forbidden word, comrade TP2. Perhaps you might better understand why this is so bad - at least here it is as frequent to call such name as GrekoCatolic. What is this a TP2 A shortening of ??

 

[Filius99993]

w00t! The bridging the between the churches grows with each passing moment! Thank you God, for this communion!

 

[Aramis]

I am not understanding this as it seems to be evolving… What Orthodox Parish turned Eastern Rite Catholicv? You mean an Orthodox Church became a Uniate Church now?

+TP

yes, in Podusiv village, Peremyshliany District, Ukraine. As mentioned in the link on post #1 of this thread.

My Russian is too weak (not enough use!) to get the parish name from the UGCC website (which is in Ukrainian).

 

[TP2]

What is this a TP2 A shortening of ??

The Priest.