Unconsecrated wine or water

[adrian1]

If we add unconsacrated wine in the Chalice after the sanctification of Gifts, this wine become Holy Blood through contact with Holy Blood? What about the harm water which is added in the chalice in the Eastern Rite after sanctification of the Gifts…

 

[AngelusDomini]

My instinct (and something in the back of my mind from what I have read) says that this would be a no no. There’s no reason to add wine or water after the consecration as it is only the celebrant who needs to receive the Precious Blood as the faithful can receive the host and will still receive the Blessed Sacrament in all its fullness.
In the case of Holy Water it has been argued that a small amount of non-blessed water may be added to prolong a supply - although this would probably only be in extremis.

 

[TheOldColonel]

The practice comes from the fact that wine during the time of Jesus was rather thick and needed to be mixed with water before serving. That’s why we hear them speak of mixing wine in scripture. Naturally, the ritual preserved the action and the Church applied theological meaning to it over time.

 

[AngelusDomini]

@frdavid96 will probably be able to give you a definite answer.

 

[Titivillus]

If we add unconsacrated wine in the Chalice after the sanctification of Gifts, this wine become Holy Blood through contact with Holy Blood? What about the harm water which is added in the chalice in the Eastern Rite after sanctification of the Gifts…

No.

I do not know the whole history, but I do know it was once speculated that wine could be consecrated by admixture with the contents of the consecrated chalice, but that is not the case.

Most naive proof: If adding common wine (and or water) to the chalice would cause the addition to become consecrated, then it would be impossible to purify the vessels! Surely, this absurd conclusion cannot hold.

 

[FrDavid96]

If we add unconsacrated wine in the Chalice after the sanctification of Gifts, this wine become Holy Blood through contact with Holy Blood?

Only if there is more of the Precious Blood and less of the plain wine.

This was actually the practice in some places in ancient times. Only one very large chalice of wine was consecrated but afterwards the Precious Blood was mixed with a lesser quantity of plain wine before being distributed using several smaller chalices or cups.

I don’t have a whole lot of history on this. Just some memories from sacramental theology classes way-back-when.

The idea is that when the plain wine is mixed with the Consecrated, it becomes a whole—the individual parts cannot be distinguished from each other; so the lesser portion becomes whatever was the greater portion.

What about the harm water which is added in the chalice in the Eastern Rite after sanctification of the Gifts…

Only a small portion of water is used, relative to the amount of consecrated Wine; not enough to affect the accidents of wine.

edit: added a few adjectives for clarity.

 

[FrDavid96]

adrian1:

If we add unconsacrated wine in the Chalice after the sanctification of Gifts, this wine become Holy Blood through contact with Holy Blood? What about the harm water which is added in the chalice in the Eastern Rite after sanctification of the Gifts…

No.

I do not know the whole history, but I do know it was once speculated that wine could be consecrated by admixture with the contents of the consecrated chalice, but that is not the case.

Most naive proof: If adding common wine (and or water) to the chalice would cause the addition to become consecrated, then it would be impossible to purify the vessels! Surely, this absurd conclusion cannot hold.

It depends on the proportions.

To use the extremes, if there’s a few drops of the Precious Blood in the chalice, but the priest adds a whole half-cup of water then the accidents of wine are lost and the mixture is just water.

On the other extreme, if a few drops of wine are added to a chalice full of the Precious Blood, then those few drops get absorbed into the Blood and the whole is the Blood.

 

[Titivillus]

It depends on the proportions.

To use the extremes, if there’s a few drops of the Precious Blood in the chalice, but the priest adds a whole half-cup of water then the accidents of wine are lost and the mixture is just water.

On the other extreme, if a few drops of wine are added to a chalice full of the Precious Blood, then those few drops get absorbed into the Blood and the whole is the Blood.

I stand corrected. I could’ve sworn I’d read it somewhere, but it was just an old CAF participant, formerly “Well-regarded by many Catholics”

There was a time*, I am told, when it was thought you could perform “consecration by admixture” – That is: If more wine were added to the precious blood, because the two liquids would mix thuroughly, the whole of the cup could be considered consecrated. If this were true, however, it would be impossible to purify the sacred vessels (no matter how many water rinses were used)!

(* When was this time I know not. It sounds like a medival belief, but I thought it was only recently that one might desire large amounts of the precious blood for distribution? Maybe my informant was pulling my leg?)

(I’m still sure I’ve read that somewhere, but just as surely I cannot find a source.
Re-emphasis on the source-may-be-pulling-my-leg excuse)

 

[FrDavid96]

I stand corrected. I could’ve sworn I’d read it somewhere, but it was just an old CAF participant, formerly “Well-regarded by many Catholics”

(I’m still sure I’ve read that somewhere, but just as surely I cannot find a source.
Re-emphasis on the source-may-be-pulling-my-leg excuse)

Again, it’s about proportion.

Both answers can be correct. It just depends.

 

[mcq72]

The practice comes from the fact that wine during the time of Jesus was rather thick and needed to be mixed with water before serving. That’s why we hear them speak of mixing wine in scripture. Naturally, the ritual preserved the action and the Church applied theological meaning to it over time.

Hi OC,

Love the word “thick”…i have heard "potent’’, or inebriating…I mean original Passover had 4 cups…for adults and kids to share…I think water needed to be made “safe” with the alcohol also.

 

[TheOldColonel]

I did an archeological dig at Bethsaida in 1999. We found some ancient wine jars in a cellar that were likely early church era. Talk about thick. The wine, essentially, had turned to stone. By the way, if you ever visit there, don’t go climbing over any fences. I found out the hard way what it’s to walk through a meadow and then realize you’re standing in the middle of a minefield. No fun walking back.